Author: Francesca Turauskis

In the final article in our short series on the power dynamics of interviews, Francesca Turauskis recommends five episodes to listen to for a masterclass in interview techniques…

Over the past few articles I’ve been exploring how podcasters can recognise the power dynamics in interviews, and how they can mitigate any awkwardness that may create by making an interview more equal.

To finish off our exploration of interviewing, I wanted to share a few examples of interviews where you can hear that the production team have been considerate of the social, political and personal contexts that surround the interview. Here are five masterful interviews to explain the power dynamics of podcasts.

1. Bloodlines – ‘Breakthrough’ and ‘DA’s Secret’

The host and reporter of Bloodlines, Poonam Taneja, has conducted interviews in Syria, Afghanistan, Bosnia, India and many more countries besides. In Bloodlines, she is investigating the disappearance of a young boy called Salmaan during the war against the Islamic State. When she heads into a prison camp in Syria Poonam speaks to a woman that she calls DA for the purpose of the series and who Poonam suspects has information about Salmaan. We can hear how guarded DA is – she doesn’t trust any media, she is worried about the legal ramifications of speaking out, and she is even more guarded around the male members of the production team.

I would recommend listening to the whole series because Poonam’s reporting is a masterclass but it is the episodes ‘Breakthrough’ and ‘DA’s Secret’ in particular that show her consideration. What’s more, she talks the listener through her process – she confirms that all recordings will be anonymous, the episodes won’t be aired before DA’s legal hearings and she reassesses the situation constantly depending on DA’s response. A worthy multi-award-winning show. Listen here.

2. British Scandal – ‘The Krays | Interview – The Krays’ barrister, Nemone Lethbridge

Nemone Lethbridge was one of the first women barristers in the UK and often defended the infamous Kray twins in court. This interview between Alice Levine and Nemone is very delicately done, and has an air of being quite relaxed despite Alice confronting Nemone about aspects of her working relationship with the twins. This interview was recommended to me by Naomi Miller when I was asking about the most influential people in podcasting. She said:

“I think a lot of people underestimated her journalistic capacities and that was really emphasised to me on an episode of British Scandal not that long ago, where she interviewed a, it must be said, relatively elderly woman who had been involved around the time of the Krays in East London. And this woman was an absolute powerhouse, and Alice interviewed her in a way that I think any journalist at any publication in the world would’ve been really proud of”.

It’s interesting that Naomi used the word ‘powerhouse’ and listening to the episode, there appears to have been a lot of consideration around the aspects of power dynamics. Firstly, interviews on British Scandal often involved both hosts, but in this case Alice spoke to Nemone without co-host Matt Forde. She also went to meet Nemone in a location that was best for her guest. This takes into account comfort, but it also gave them something extra to talk about because the location was relevant to the topic. I agree that this is a great example of journalistic skill. Listen here.

3. Shocking, Heartbreaking, Transformative – ‘Release’

I’ve mentioned Shocking, Heartbreaking, Transformative as an example of good podcasting several times over the past year. The reason it comes up a lot is because the show is so meta in the way you are taken through the process of creating a narrative podcast – I’d go so far as to say that this show is more for podcasters than listeners.

When it comes to the power dynamics between the interviewer and interviewee, this whole series addresses that very topic. Every episode is riddled with examples of good and bad practice, and host Jess Shane will point them all out as you listen, but for one standout example episode I would say listen to the final one, ‘Release’, by itself. Unlike other examples in this list, ‘Release’ has an example of when a guest tries to take more control of the episode than Jess was comfortable with. Allowing her interviewee a chance to feedback on her edit throws Jess’ whole production schedule. It is a great example of the awkward situations that can occur if power dynamics aren’t – essentially – agreed by all parties, and hearing how Jess responds to this is a lovely example of trying to rebalance a situation. Listen here.

4. The English Disease | Legacy – ‘The Englishman’

Listen with caution to this podcast – both guests and talking heads use racist and misogynistic language readily. This is partly why I put this on the list, as The English Disease explores the legacy of football hooliganism (and the violent subculture to football that exists in 2024) in a way that is transparent and gives voice to characters in that world without condoning what they are saying. We often hear host Sam Diss and producer Nicky Anderson talking about the best way to report on the subject, and who to speak to for the series. Sometimes they admit they don’t get it right – in particular, we hear the different levels of comfort between them. In this episode, when interviewing ‘The Englishman’ of the title in a pub in Nottingham, Sam admits he barely notices the sexist comments, whilst Nicky wonders how much worse they would have been if she were not there.

Later in the series, we get some more background on the production process between the team, and how often they checked in with each other. At one point, Nicky decides to put her welfare before the reporting and it’s great to hear. A really interesting series that is difficult to listen to and must have been difficult to make. Listen here.

5. The Quilt – ‘The Unravelling’

The latest series from our friends at Aunt Nell, The Quilt is sharing living memories of queer Britain & Northern Ireland. Produced and hosted by Tash Walker and Adam Zmith, the series automatically has what I call the ‘affinity interview’ aspect, as Tash and Adam are creating a podcast for a community they identify as part of. In the first episode, ‘The Unravelling’, we also get a lovely example of a ‘happening interview’, where Adam meets Serena James and asks her to talk us through some of her possessions, including ‘the most fabulous dress’ and how it felt when she put it on for the first time. This is a beautiful way of talking about the significance of clothes to Serena as a trans woman, and lets us hear her joy from wearing it.

The rest of this series gives some great examples of choosing good locations for interviews – from significant venues in queer history to Pride events and more. It creates a lovely topic of conversation, and an interesting tapestry (or quilt!) of different audio sources for the listener. Listen here.

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Even if you are a confident podcaster, the power dynamics at play during interviews can lead to very awkward situations if you don’t manage them well. Francesca Turauskis shares how podcasters can make interviewers and interviewees more equal…

In my last article, I explored how interviewers and interviewees are never really equals – at least at the point the interview is agreed. There are always power dynamics at play that will affect your interview, and sometimes that can mean that you end up with recordings that don’t answer the questions you set out to ask.

The good news is that you can conduct an interview in a way that helps you gain more control over the situation, or in a way that lets your interviewee take some control themselves. Here are four ways to help make an interview more equal.

Choose the Right Location

One of the most important jobs for a podcast producer is picking the right location for an interview. This is true from a practical sense (e.g. picking the best option for good audio) but it also helps manage the dynamics of an interview.

If you want someone to have an easy experience, interviewing them at home can be a great way to meet them where they are. Sarah Koenig of Serial said during An Evening with Sarah Koenig that “sometimes it’s great to be in a source’s house.” However, she cautioned that “it is like you’re a guest. So sometimes it’s not the best venue, especially if you’re going to be confronting somebody.”

Picking a neutral space can be a good option and could also help keep the conversation civil if you are confronting someone. However, bear in mind that public spaces might be inappropriate for some conversations. In her class for the Broccoli BUILD series, broadcast journalist Alice Bloch pointed out that “if you’re going to be talking about something sensitive… don’t do it in the middle of a noisy café or co-working space.”

If you want to control the space, inviting someone into the studio can be a great choice for a professional and private venue. Do think about the vibe you want to give guests when they are there – you can keep it professional but you could also make it welcoming or relaxing. In the Structure of Intimacy panel at the International Women’s Podcast Festival this year, Natasha Miller from the Bitter/Sweet podcast talked about how she tries to make guests comfortable using different scents and candles.

Wherever you choose to do your interview, the main thing to remember is to choose with purpose, and think about how the guest might feel in that place with you.

Explain the Interview and Production Process

Explaining the interview and production process is a great idea with lots of guests, and I would recommend making this a regular part of your interview flow. If someone isn’t used to being interviewed, talking through how you edit the show can be a great way to reassure them or prepare them that only a small section of an interview might be used. This is something that producer Jess Shane covered in detail in Radiotopia’s podcast, Shocking, Heartbreaking, Transformative, and it helps avoid misunderstandings or upset when the interview is released.

Talking through the next steps can also help indicate your control over the show if an interviewee is trying to have more power over the conversation than you are comfortable with (such as if they avoided answering your questions). For example, explaining who else you are speaking to during an investigation might encourage a guest to be more honest with probing questions.

This is also where you can cover editorial or legal aspects such as the fact the interview will be edited or offering the right of reply. This is especially important if you are running an investigation but could also be useful to consider for other podcast styles.

Consider an Activity

When you think of an interview, you’ll likely picture two people sitting down but including an activity in your interview could be a great way to break up the Q&A style. It can add some interest for the listener as it shows a different side to your guest and has the potential to include sound beyond the conversation.

Producer Leo Hornak spoke about this method of interviewing at my recent Tremula Festival, and he calls it a ‘happening interview’. “I think it’s a whole tool that people use a lot but maybe don’t give enough thought to,” he said. “There’s just so many ways in which you can make something happen in your interview that goes beyond just words”.

This is also a place to consider the dynamics of the interviewer-interviewee setup. If you are speaking to someone who is shy or uncomfortable with the microphone, doing an activity they know well can help put them at ease. “They can forget that the microphone’s there,” Leo says, “and they can become their real self rather than wondering what everyone’s going to think when they hear this”.

On the flip side, if you are speaking to someone that makes you nervous or has been interviewed a lot (such as your favourite celebrity) doing an activity can give you something different to talk about, and help you feel more at ease in that conversation.

Consider If You Are The Best Interviewer

One last thing that I think is always worth considering is whether you are the best interviewer to get the answers that you are looking for from a guest. There are some situations where you could be the most considerate interviewer in the world, but pre-existing power dynamics mean that someone just won’t answer you in the way you need them to.

Social and cultural dynamics can sometimes make a guest feel uncomfortable or guarded, especially if their experiences differ significantly from your own. For example, if you’re discussing sensitive topics like racism or sexism and you haven’t personally experienced them, the guest may feel less open. In such cases, consider arranging what I call an “affinity interview,” where someone who shares more common ground or lived experience with the guest conducts the interview instead.

On the flip side of the coin, you might also find there are interviews you don’t want to undertake because of how it will affect you. If a subject or guest feels too uncomfortable or personal to you, think about if someone else might be able to interview them instead. Remember that no matter how important an interview is, always consider your safety and welfare when you are arranging it.

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No matter what type of podcast you are making, considering the context and the options for your interviews is an important part of the process. We hope these tips can help you approach interviewing in a more purposeful way.

If you want more tips on successful interviewing, the video versions of the IWPF panels and workshops will soon be online, but in the meantime, make sure you are signed up to our newsletter to hear all our latest offerings.

Whether it is a relaxed conversation or a probing exposé, there are always power dynamics at play that can change how an interview goes. Francesca Turauskis offers some tips for helping you understand where you stand as an interviewer…

One of the themes that I really appreciated at this year’s International Women’s Podcast Festival was how many of the sessions gave space to the interview process. Conducting interviews is such a keystone of podcasting, but I think it can sometimes be forgotten that there is a lot of skill in doing it well. In particular, there is an aspect of interviewing that many of the sessions I saw touched on: interviewees and interviewers are not equals.

There are always power dynamics between people in our society, so there will always be power dynamics in interviews. Things such as job roles, the topic you’re talking about, and your relationship to each other can affect who feels most ‘in charge’ of the conversation. In a similar way, it is worth acknowledging aspects of privilege and power within society that could affect how you connect to the person you’re interviewing.

For many conversations, you and your guests will likely have an unconscious understanding of where you both stand, and approaching the conversation with a warm and friendly attitude will be all you need. However, for some interviews, it is worth considering the power dynamics more consciously as they might affect your experiences of the interview – and what your listener ends up hearing.

Here are a few questions to ask yourself to start thinking about the different places power can lie in an interview.

Who is asking the questions?

Being the interviewer asking the questions automatically gives you a certain amount of power over the conversation. You have more idea of where the conversation will go, and you know what you hope your listeners will hear. For some guests, this could be part of the fun and they might not need more than a general idea of the topic, but you might find others want to have a bit more control over the conversation.

If your guests ask for the questions beforehand, put vetoes on topics or suggest and rewrite questions, it might suggest they want to feel more in control. How much of this power you do hand to your guests in this part of the process depends on the next question…

What type of interview is it?

When considering the power dynamics in your conversations, it is important to ask yourself what the purpose of the interview is. Are you asking an expert to share their knowledge? Are you challenging a politician for information? Or are you asking a guest about their personal life and traumatic experiences? The type of interview you are conducting really affects where the power lies, and also whether you want to try and equalise the interview (more on that in a future article!)

Interviewers have the power to make people feel comfortable or uncomfortable, depending on the purpose of the questioning. At An Evening with Sarah Koenig, Sarah was addressing how some interviewees found the process too aggressive or probing. She pointed out that interviews “aren’t always supposed to be fun”. When it comes to investigations in particular, interviews can be “uncomfortable, but that’s also our job”.

Who picked the location of the interview?

One good indicator of who is in charge of an interview is thinking about who picked the location. Did you suggest somewhere you are comfortable, or did they invite you to meet them somewhere? Did someone invite you to their home, or did you surprise them on the doorstep? Where an interview takes place can make a real difference as to how comfortable you both are, but if one person was leading more on that decision, it could show where the control in the conversation lies. You could be interviewing someone in their home – but if you invited yourself over, that is quite a powerful statement on who is in charge.

What are the social and cultural dynamics?

If you have a diverse list of guests (which hopefully you do!) you are going to speak to people who come from different backgrounds, and experience the world from a different perspective. Although your conversations might not be addressing their identity, politics or culture directly, it is important to have some understanding of how these aspects feed into the experiences of your guests. Try to approach all interviews with an awareness of the privileges and disadvantages that are inherent in our society.

How well do you know each other?

How well the interviewer and guest know each other can really affect all the other contexts: you might be interviewing the King in Buckingham Palace, but if you are the Queen it makes that interview much more equal. You might be very similar to each other and meeting in a mutual place, but if you don’t know the person the power is more likely to lean towards your professional status as the interviewer. Think about your relationship to each other, and how that might change the dynamics of the interview.

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Remember, you can’t know all of the context to an interview and who holds power could change throughout the course of an interview. However, by asking yourself these questions it will give you some more information to help you prepare for a successful conversation.

The video versions of the IWPF panels and workshops about interviews will soon be online, but in the meantime, you can head back to basics with Imriel Morgan’s Top Tips for Podcast Interviews.

Defining the podcast sector shouldn’t just be about topping the charts. Francesca Turauskis shares a list of people who are rolling up their sleeves to change the podcast industry for the better…

I have seen several lists over the years that try to pinpoint the ‘most influential people’ in podcasting, and I often think that such articles give too much importance to topping the chart, too much space to dangerous individuals, and too little thought to podcasting outside of the USA. Such people do have power and influence, yet it doesn’t mean they are giving anything to the podcast industry as a whole.

Here at Content is Queen we know that there are so many people working to change the podcast industry and actively influence what it will become. Like nudging an asteroid millions of miles away, there are people whose work now might be going unnoticed by many – but I think what they are doing will change the direction of podcasting and help it avoid crashing and burning.

So I wanted to create an alternative list of some of the most influential people in podcasting that celebrates not just personal success, but changing the podcast landscape. This list mixes my personal opinions with suggestions from some attendees at the International Women’s Podcast Festival last month. It is by no means an exhaustive list, but it just goes to show how many podcast professionals are rolling up their sleeves to create change.

Here is the Content is Queen suggestion of influential people in podcasting that you should know!

Leanne Alie

Leanne Alie is no stranger to the Content is Queen community, and she is the person behind many initiatives that open up the UK audio industry. In previous roles, she has been responsible for bringing Spotify’s Sound Up Bootcamp to the UK and launching the BBC Sounds Audio Lab open pitch and now in her role as Head of Podcasts with The Artists Partnership, she has created a new Amplify Accelerator as part of The Partnership Group.

Away from her day jobs, she’s been behind the scenes on several influential UK podcast events, she is a trustee of the Multitrack Fellowship and was recently the Head of Judges for the British Podcast Awards. You can find out more about Leanne and her path into podcasting in our interview with her earlier this year.

One of the people who recommended Leanne Alie was Laura Blake (who is herself an incredibly influential person as the co-lead on the Equality in Audio Pact and Head of UKAN/UK Audio Network platform). Laura told me:

“I think Leanne’s work through her own podcast Coiled, but then working as a commissioner at BBC and now what she’s doing with Amplified is, I think, groundbreaking and I think she is a guiding light in the audio industry.”

Alice Levine

Many people will be familiar with Alice as one third of My Dad Wrote a Porno, which has been described as the “most successful podcast in British history” after it was the first show ever to be inducted into the British Podcast Awards hall of fame in 2023. This in itself would put the whole MDWAP team into the running for influential podcasters, but whilst her co-hosts have mostly worked in theatre since ending the show, Alice has continued to grow her podcast credentials.

Alice hosts several podcasts, often on Wondery shows such as British Scandal and this year’s hit The Price of Paradise. Taking her influence beyond the talent aspects of podcasting, Alice was also part of the team behind Crossed Wires, a new podcast event based in Sheffield that described itself as ‘The UK’s biggest podcasting party’. Launching such a big event in the industry is exciting to think about, and especially when they chose to do a regional event outside London (sometime I’ve previously encouraged.)

Alice was recommended by Naomi Mellor (Founder of Everybody Media and the International Women’s Podcast Awards) who said:

“As she herself said, when you have a podcast called My Dad Wrote a Porno, perhaps people don’t take you as seriously as they maybe should, but I think she has shown her true colours and is really emphasising herself as a true leader in the podcast sector”.

Thomas Curry (BBC Studios Audio)

A multi-award-winning producer, Thomas Curry has created podcasts for many of the leading companies in the podcast industry including Apple, Audible, BBC, CBC, Spotify, and Wondery amongst others. There is no doubt that Thomas is a talented producer, and this is why he was also part of a team that received a Content is Queen Micro-Grant 2023 (for Sissy, sharing in-depth interviews about queer life.)

Thomas is elevated to ‘influential’ due to his job roles, firstly as Head of Podcasts at Vespucci, and now as Head of Production at BBC Studios Audio (a commercial production element of the BBC). In this role he will deliver the business and commercial strategy for the Audio unit, which means that he will be a big influence on the direction and types of shows that get developed and pitched by the Studios.

It is important that such roles are held by people that understand the purpose of things like the Equality in Audio Pact (EAP), and given that Thomas was one of the signatures of the 2023 Open Letter to the Audio Industry about the lack of action after the EAP it seems like a good start.

Producer Meera Kumar recommended Thomas to me and she said:

“I know that for the next few years I’m going to see changes: I’m going to see more exciting things come out of BBC studios [sic], more creative things, different things, and it makes me feel hopeful and excited for the future of podcasting again… It makes a difference having that person in that particular position of power that they’re going to make creative choices that other people would be too afraid to or not understand. And I think that’s how we usher in the next era of audio.”

Zara McDonald and Michelle Andrews (Shameless Media)

Like many podcasts, Zara McDonald and Michelle Andrews’ Shameless has a simple concept (a chat show about pop culture that is ‘for smart people who love dumb stuff’). So when Zara and Michelle’s workplace (the Australian-based women’s media company Mamamia) rejected the idea, they decided to start making the show themselves. They had 70 Australian dollars and recorded in a bedroom and six years later, Shameless Media is Australia’s biggest independent media company for young women.

The aspirational aspect of bootstrapping a podcast company is something we see quite often, particularly from people who have stepped sideways from other creative industries. However I think that Zara and Michelle have offered some content that was missing from Australia’s media landscape. In an interview with Forbes Australia, Michelle pointed out that the pair had noticed “a huge gap for pop culture through a smart lens. We felt a lot of people were talking about pop culture, but not with an analytical lens”. What’s more, there is an ethos in how they have refused corporate buyout, and it sets a precedent for the Australian podcasting landscape.

Leona Fensome (Founder of Inkslingers Media) was the person who recommend Zara and Michelle, and she had this to say:

“They’ve had lots of Australian companies and international companies try and buy in, but they’ve said ‘no. We know exactly editorially and from a vision perspective where we want to go with this’. And I think they’re definitely two girls to really put on that list of influential podcasters because they’ve set up an independent media company within the last six years. They’ve got 15 employees. They did it.”

Nicole Logan (Goalhanger)

In 2023, PodPod announced Nicole Logan as a ‘Face to Watch’ – at the time she was Head of Development at Reduced Listening, where she developed and produced works including The Sleeping Forecast for BBC Sounds and the video podcast Nailing It for Spotify. Her focus on content that appeals to Gen-Z is something that many media companies crave.

Nicole has very recently been hired as their first ever Executive Producer of Development at Goalhanger. Whilst influential shouldn’t just be about topping the charts, Goalhanger has so many shows regularly at the top of the charts that it is arguably one of the most influential and powerful podcast companies in the UK currently. In her job role, Nicole will be working across the company’s slate of shows and looking to develop and release new ones as well. It puts her in potentially a very powerful position based on previous Goalhanger shows, as new ones are likely to find a large and welcoming listenership.

She has also been a Member Board Of Trustees at Multitrack for more than five years, so you can see her dedication to creating something for the future of the podcast industry.

Chloe Straw recommended Nicole, as did Lisa Hack (Senior Technical Tutor for audio, radio and podcasts at Goldsmiths, University of London) who said:

“Watching how Nicole is navigating the industry and bringing her skills and talent through to different places has been great. Her energy is amazing. She always brings good vibes into a room. Again, privileged to work with her at Multitrack and always helpful and always looking at how to solve issues creatively, bringing people together, knowing who might be a good person for different things. So really a big talent, I think, and Goalhanger must be really excited to have her.”

Nina Robinson (Soundtruism)

The CEO and Founder of Soundtrusim, Nina Robinson is dedicated to telling diverse and authentic stories in audio. Based in Birmingham, she is another example of how the influence in podcasting can sit very comfortably outside of London, and the Birmingham Uni Pod Fest created by Soundtrusim is doing lots of work to prepare the next generation of audio professionals.

Her focus isn’t just on the future though, and Nina often does work with the Lenny Henry Centre for Media Diversity, which works across media types to achieve accurate representation. She is a Board Member for AudioUK, and she was instrumental in bringing the Podcasting Seriously Audio Fund to the UK, which aims to make audio awards and competitions more accessible to underrepresented communities, independent producers and early-career aspirants.

Another person who was recommended by more than one person, Lisa Hack was particularly praising of her work around events:

“A big shout out for doing stuff outside of London as well in the Midlands, and what she’s been achieving with [Uni Pod Fest] so far has been really good… she also does really good wrap-ups of events that she goes to. If I haven’t been to something, I guarantee I’ll go to Nina’s Instagram and there’ll be a brilliant post of what’s been going on and who’s who, what’s been happening.”

Imriel Morgan (Content is Queen)

Imriel Morgan is CEO and Founder of Content is Queen, the home of the International Women’s Podcast Festival. In the past five years Content is Queen has been amplifying minority voices, and through initiatives such as the Festival and Micro-Grants. What’s more, Imriel has worked closely with the big players in podcasting such as Spotify, Audible and Acast to make these things happen –

In 2023, Content is Queen became the co-lead for the Equality in Audio Pact, and the dedication of the team behind the scenes to follow the ethos of equality and encourage other companies to do the same is incredible.

Imriel is the person I wanted to recommend myself for this – and it is not because of any employee obligation (this is when I can point out being a freelancer gives me a slight outsider view and a lot of freedom!). Instead, I just want to say that it is incredible to see the work and passion that goes on behind the scenes to bring important audio into the world. Imriel is a facilitator of the podcasting process for so many.

The Guests

One person (or group of people) that I thought was nice to mention was recommended by Karen Arthur from the Menopause Whilst Black podcast. When asked who the most influential people in podcasting were, she reminded me that there is a power in the ripples that come from listening to guests on podcasts that you don’t hear from elsewhere. As Karen said:

“I like to hear from people you don’t normally hear from, so I want to hear from women. I want to hear from black women. I love an intergenerational conversation, so I want to hear from older people talking to younger people. I want to hear ordinary, extraordinary stories because I think we’re all extraordinary and I think that a 1%, a small percentage of people get the most amplification.”

Honourable mentions:

As I said at the start, this list barely scratches the surface of those that deserve to be mentioned as ‘most influential in podcasting’. I have focused in this article on people who are actively working for change as we speak and those working within podcasting rather than audio as a whole.

However, there are several people mentioned by those I asked that are doing fantastic work across the whole of the audio sector, and others I wanted to point out have influenced the industry historically:

• Renay Richardson: Renay was the instigator of the Equality in Audio Pact, and her company Broccoli Production brought a range of innovative shows to the podcast scene. Since Broccoli closed down earlier in 2024, Renay has taken a step back from audio, but her previous influence still resonates.
• Lily Ames: As Head of Production & Culture at Chalk & Blade Lily still holds, but her mention here is for starting the UK Audio Network (UKAN). The Google Group has been a key place for posting and finding work in audio, and also provides a space for discussions about the industry.
• Laura Blake (UKAN): As the current Head of UKAN, Laura has been leading on the UKAN Pay Survey in 2023 and 2024 as a way to offer some transparency on the rates of pay in the audio industry as a whole.
• Bea Duncan & Tess Davidson (ELAN): As the Co-Founders of the Entry Level Audio Network (ELAN) Bea and Tess have created a community that welcomes new professionals into the audio industry. It is not too much to say that their work with ELAN is helping to shape the future of the industry, and from a place of inclusion and diversity.
• Aradhna Tayal Leach (The Radio Academy): As the Managing Director of The Radio Academy, the only audio and radio industry charity, Aradhna Tayal Leach’s work spreads into the podcasting side of audio and she is keen to welcome and share the resources and support that The Radio Academy can offer to all audio creators, with a passion for encouraging diverse practices across industries. Find out more about her work in our previous interview.
• Chloe Straw (AudioUK): In a similar role as the Managing Director of AudioUK, Chloe Straw’s work covers aspects of the audio industry that affect audio professionals at all levels, not just podcasting. She is a voice for audio in meetings from government departments to Spotify. Find out more about Chloe in our previous interview.
• Hannah Brankin (Rusty Quill): Now the Chief operating Officer of Rusty Quill, Hannah has been working with the company for seven years. Rusty Quill is the home of some of the most successful audio drama podcasts around, and Chloe Straw pointed to the business aspect of Rusty Quill being a big influence on the genre: “They take traditionally quite a tricky audio medium to monetise and they do brilliantly and live shows. They’ve got a board game merch, they’re an incredible, incredible business. She runs them really well.”
• Ella Watts: A true champion for podcast and audio dramas, Ella Watts works across big franchise audio and independent, micro-budget podcasts that share stories not heard in other media. She is well-known in the genre and wider podcast industry, and you can find out more about her in our previous interview.
• Leona Fensome: Another great recommendation by Chloe Straw, Leona is the Founder of Inkslingers Media and of particular mention I think is her mixing of media between oral history, audio art, journalism and podcasting, which highlights the importance of audio in the social and historical context (something she is exploring more in her PhD on the history of student-led, community radio stations).
• Megan Bradshaw (Amazon Music): Recommended by Chloe Straw, who pointed out the need for collaboration and support from such individuals in larger companies: “We need to rely on partnerships with places like Amazon to do a lot of the work that we do and she’s always just incredibly supportive as well as very, very involved.”

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Thank you to everyone who spoke to me and suggested people for this list. If you think we’ve missed someone obvious, you can let us know on social media.

If this article has influenced you, whatever level you are at in your podcasting career, Content is Queen can provide you with valuable tools, resources and expertise at your fingertips. You can find out more about joining our community of storytellers or sign-up to our newsletter at the bottom of the page to get the latest news and opportunities from Content is Queen and the wider podcasting scene.

The International Women’s Podcast Festival 2024 was an absolute feat of programming, with dozens of sessions from podcast experts teaching audio production, podcast promotion and discussing inclusive principles behind creating good shows. We are so excited to be able to share the sessions from our London event with a wider audience soon.

In the meantime we wanted to help you continue learning about podcasting, by signposting to some suggestions from our attendees. Here are six ways to upskill your podcast prowess.

Content is Queen’s podcast resources and talks!

“So… the Content is Queen newsletter comes every two weeks, and it’s really good” said Naomi Mellor from Everybody Media, without any prompting! We couldn’t agree more, as we work year-round to try and demystify podcast production for everyone. The other place we would point you towards for more podcast resources is of course the IWPF24 Global Voices sessions, which you can access for free on our virtual stage, right now. There is an abundance of learning, connection, and inspiration with podcasters from around the world, and sessions include ‘Podcasting for Activism’, ‘Boost Podcast Discoverability’ and a voice workshop for podcasters.

If you have zoomed through those sessions already, perhaps you can head back to some of our original generation of free resources to nail the basics.

AIR Media

Another recommendation from Naomi Mellor was AIR Media, which is the Association of Independents in Radio. “I’m quite a big fan of what’s provided through AIR in the States. A lot of that is online, ” Naomi told us. “Some of them are free, some of them are paid for, but they do some really good teaching with some really good international experts.” The ‘Toolbox’ section in particular has a number of resources, and whilst it is US-centric, there are some very specific webinars such as ‘Pitching NPRs National Desk’ that could give some much-needed inside advice.

Multitrack Masterclasses

“I would say that if you want to continue your learning, then there are some great events that Multitrack puts on,” Meera Kumar recommended, and it’s a favourite of ours as well. “They put them on in collaboration with great organisations like Audible or Audio Labs or AudioUK. A professional will come in, show you how they do things. You can upskill really quickly. And I think having access to sessions like that is invaluable – I came through Multitrack and I’ve done those upskilling sessions”.

Meera herself is now one of those experts running a session on ‘Creating a Sonic Identity for a Story’ on Friday 8th November, and she recommended keeping an eye on their social accounts to see when new events are announced (you can also follow them on Eventbrite itself).

BBC Academy Podcast

“The BBC Academy Podcast on podcasting” is a recommendation from Lisa Hack (who ran a talk on ‘Don’t Fix It In Post’ to help you set up good recordings). This podcast is for the broadcast production, journalism and technology communities, and it isn’t just about podcasting but instead aims to give practical advice on all aspects of TV, radio, and journalism. “It’s a bit of a sporadic podcast in itself. I found some good bits in there.” The recent ‘minipods’ series on smartphone journalism, in particular, is something we didn’t specifically cover in our festival this year but could help you make professional-quality audio journalism even if you don’t have the budget and equipment of big media establishments.

BUILD by Broccoli Productions

BUILD is one of the legacies of Broccoli Productions, who sadly closed earlier this year. If you want to work in podcasting, this is a great resource because it is an audio-first learning podcast platform. The classes cover aspects of audio creation across five pillars: marketing, production, business, personal development, and storytelling. This is especially good for those of you who want to work in audio and podcasting professionally, as you can learn more about navigating the industry as a whole, as well as creating good content. For some encouragement to get networking, Danni Haughan (who previously ran the Apple Podcasts business in Europe and produced the Penguin Podcast) will help you think about it in a different way, and figure out where you fit in the industry, and who you might want to work with.

Your Fellow Podcasters

Speaking of networking, we couldn’t neglect to mention one of the best resources for learning about podcasting and this is your fellow podcasters. It was such a joy to see the conversations that were occurring around the sessions on 4th October. We are keen believers that expertise is not limited to the speakers and panellists, and that includes you reading this! If you haven’t yet connected with people following the festival, pop over that email, send that DM or arrange a coffee. No matter where you are in your podcast journey, you have something to teach as well as something to learn.

Francesca Turauskis gives us the rundown from An Evening with Sarah Koenig at the Festival Hall, Southbank Centre as part of the International Women’s Podcast Festival 2024…

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The London part of the International Women’s Podcast Festival 2024 was spread over two days, starting with an ‘Evening with Sarah Koenig’ on 3rd October. A co-production between the International Women’s Podcast Festival and the Southbank Centre, it was a beautiful celebration of the 10th Anniversary of the iconic podcast series, Serial, and it was an enlightening evening for listeners and podcasters alike.

We got to hear the Co-Creator of Serial, Sarah Koenig, in conversation with Samira Ahmed, the award-winning presenter, journalist and herself the host of the podcast How I Found My Voice. The conversation covered so many areas of Sarah’s podcast journey, and I wanted to share some of the things that stood out for me during the conversation that might be useful to podcasters, and interesting to listeners.

SERIAL INVESTIGATES ADNAN’S CONVICTION, NOT THE MURDER

The thing Sarah said that was most interesting to me personally was something that may seem like a small technicality, but actually changes the entire way I think about the first series of Serial. At the centre of that series is the murder of Hae Min Lee, a high-school student from Baltimore. Serial investigated whether her ex-boyfriend, Adnan Syed, was wrongly convicted of her murder and listeners might find themselves wondering if Adnan is guilty or innocent.

However, that wasn’t quite the line of investigation that Sarah and her team took – instead, they were interested in whether the conviction itself was unlawful, and if some aspects of the case were missed or ignored in the original police investigation. It is a small difference, but I think it differentiates Serial’s investigation style from other true crime podcasts that might be more interested in the human characters, and questions of innocence and guilt.

This interest in the criminal process is also something we see in Serial’s later series, and explains what may have seemed like a pivot away from the standard ‘true crime’ topics.

THE PRODUCTION TIMELINE

Sarah delved into some of the behind-the-scenes moments of producing Serial, including the production timeline for the first series. What was interesting to me was that she had been researching the case of Adnan Syed’s conviction for an episode of This American Life for months and it’s certainly a testament to how important development time and space is. (As a sidenote, this is one of the reasons I think initiatives like the Content is Queen Micro-grant are so important.)

Another thing that she shared was how close to the wire the final moments of production were. “I think we had made the first four episodes once we started,” Sarah said “But then we were really making them in real-time and that was horrible!”. So if you’re also someone who works towards deadlines a bit too tightly, you are in good company with the first podcast to win a Peabody Award!

JOURNALISTIC INTEGRITY

With two journalists speaking together, it’s unsurprising that the conversation covered aspects of journalistic integrity. Sarah tackled how it was a learning curve to protect her sources from public interest after the first series of Serial became so unexpectedly popular. Another aspect when it comes to sources is the idea that interviews should be approached differently depending on the interviewee and the reason for interviewing them. Sometimes, an interview in the person’s house would make sense, and at other times, the interview venue should be more neutral.

Sarah also addressed some of the misunderstanding that her work is purely for entertainment rather than being a form of investigative journalism. The idea that Serial is entertainment has been a way to dismiss issues raised by the podcast, particularly in the third series about problems with the criminal justice system in Cleveland. “It is both good reporting and entertaining!” Sarah says, and it has highlighted important issues over the years.

SERIAL’S SUCCESS COULD BE ABOUT GOOD TIMING

One thing Sarah mentioned briefly that could be really interesting when it comes to the conversation of podcast discoverability was the timing of Serial’s first series. The release of Serial coincided with the release of the iPhone 6, which was the first time Apple Podcasts was pre-installed with iOS. This boosted the popularity of podcasts in general, and as Serial was a featured podcast on the app around that time, it boosted its visibility at precisely the right time. It will not have been the only reason Serial was a success – for one thing, people wouldn’t have continued listening if the podcast wasn’t good. However, this makes me interested to know what other podcasts were featured on Apple Podcasts simultaneously and whether they succeeded and endured similarly…

THE TRUE LEGACY OF SERIAL

A final theme that arose more than once during the evening was that of legacy. In the ten years since Serial defined the serialised storytelling technique, it has created something of a podcast zeitgeist. Samira asked Sarah how she felt about how her work has been mirrored in that time, but Sarah wasn’t too keen to claim a connection to podcasts that have followed in the wake of Serial. Instead, she is most proud of the individuals she has reached out to and who have reached out to her. “What has been really, really gratifying” she said, “is hearing people say to me, ‘I became a lawyer because of you”, or, ‘I became a journalist because of you’ or, ‘I’m working at the Innocence Project because of you’.” That is the true legacy of Serial – and what is lovely about that is it is something every podcaster can aspire to.

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‘An Evening with Sarah Koenig’ was made possible with the support of Spotify, and it takes a huge amount of work to put on events like this. We would like to thank everybody working on the event, including the captioning and BSL team who made the evening accessible, and Will Ireland for the photography. Make sure you are signed up to our newsletter via the bottom of the page to hear about opportunities or head to festival.contentisqueen.org/global-voices to find out more about the speakers and talks.

Francesca Turauskis gives us the rundown from the International Women’s Podcast Festival 2024, picking out some highlights and quotes from those attending and involved in the event…

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“This festival is not just any podcasting event, It’s a space where ideas spark, connections happen and creativity finds new fuel.” – Imriel Morgan, Content is Queen Founder

Imriel Morgan, Founder and CEO of Content is Queen, wrote these words in her ‘welcome’ note for the International Women’s Podcast Festival (IWPF) programme, and it certainly held true for the 2024 festival – this event was something special.

The main conference took place on 4th October 2024 at the Coin Street Neighbourhood Centre, on London’s South Bank. This was a new venue for the festival (previously held at Kings Place) and it was a lovely space for the event, not least because of the community ethos at Coin Street Neighbourhood Centre – aside from the Festival attendees, people were coming to drop their kids off at the nursery, spend time in the community gardens, and more. The highlight of the venue was no doubt the incredible lounge – Spotify designed and supported our networking area for the day and I enjoyed the soft velvet-style seating, columns of flowers and the perfect background for group photo, not to mention the goodies – more of that later!

Whilst I can’t distil the whole event into a simple article, I wanted to share some of the things that stood out for me this year, as well as some comments from others who attended and were involved in the day.

AMAZING CONVERSATIONS (ON AND OFF STAGE)

“I met someone, and just having a general conversation with her, she warmed me up so much… I’ve actually started to follow her and I’m going to listen to her podcast.” – Anon

Given that podcasting is a medium based on chatting, it is no surprise that the day was filled with amazing conversations! On stage we had panels across the day that went deep into subjects such as how producers can shape the experience of everyone involved in podcasts for better (or worse), how we can make money whilst still telling stories that matter, and the importance of journalistic integrity.

What’s also incredible about this event is that such incredible topics and knowledge are not limited to the stage. All the questions from our audience were incredible, opening up new ideas and sometimes challenging the panellists with both respect and confidence. Away from the programming, it was wonderful to hear about all the connections people made in the networking time. The room was always busy with conversations, people waving to each other across the room. We’ve all come away with a list of shows to listen to and potential collaborators for the future!

THE NICEST VIBES

“I cannot thank you enough… As a lawyer, my experiences of conferences are that they are awful, hierarchical, posturing events. The atmosphere at yours, however, gave me the confidence to speak to others” – Patsy, Guest

“The vibes were great, the content was *actually* helpful and provoking, and then networking felt natural and across all levels of industry.” – Steph, CEO editaudio

One of the things that was mentioned consistently was the atmosphere of the day, particularly in comparison to other events. There is a reason that we call our event a ‘festival’ rather than a conference, and we love to hear that there was such an atmosphere of celebration on the day. What’s even better is that the International Women’s Podcast Festival is proof that you can still provide valuable learning and upskilling in this friendly environment. From new podcasters to people established in the industry, it’s been great to hear what people have been taking away from the day!

THE PEOPLE

“Everybody has been so nice. Sometimes you find in groups like that, people can be a bit cliquey, but not on this occasion… It’s been brilliant!” – Natalie, Guest

What makes the IWPF such a special event is everyone who takes part – our speakers in London and on the Global Voices stage and our fantastic volunteers all worked so hard to bring the day to you, and we cannot thank them enough for their energy, help and hard work.

Of course our lovely audience is a huge part of the wonderful atmosphere of the event. More than once I was in a conversation, and someone would shyly say “I don’t know anyone here” to be welcomed and reassured by the rest of the group. Several of the speakers asked the audience to turn to their neighbour to discuss something, only to have difficulty breaking them apart again! It’s incredible to know that there are so many wonderful women working on podcasts in the UK.

THE GOODIES

“Can I borrow your ice cream sandwich for a photo?” – Bea, Volunteer

Merch and goodies at events can often be purely about branding, and goodie bags often follow a similar pattern (I personally have far too many tote bags and water bottles at home!). The goodies we got last Friday were put together and supported by Spotify and it was honestly all so useful. For one thing, we had less ‘things’ and more food and drink, with a juice bar, coffee available and some beautiful salads for our lunch break. The talk of the treats was the ice cream sandwiches from Happy Endings, which were very Instagramable and very tasty.

The fact the goodie bag was a zipped bag has already proven very useful for me to carry around my recording equipment on the day and my beach gear at home, and the cordless lav microphone is so on-brand for the event. It’ll be in my bag from now on for emergency recording situations!

At the end of the night, the flowers from the display were divvied up between the remaining guests, and I smiled to see so many people walking down the streets of London with flowers in their hair.

THE FESTIVAL ISN’T OVER!

The in-person International Women’s Podcast Festival might be over for 2024, but the festival itself still continues online. Our Global Voices stage is a virtual offering and this is the perfect way to continue your learning and celebrate a truly international podcast festival. If you got your login details before the day, you can still access the talks from podcasts experts based around the globe. If you haven’t got login details, we’re currently working behind the scenes to make the videos accessible for everyone. Make sure you are signed up to our newsletter via the bottom of the page to hear as soon as they are available, or head to festival.contentisqueen.org/global-voices to find out more about the speakers and talks.

Photo credit: Will Ireland

There is just one week to go until the International Women’s Podcast Festival 2024! One of the best and most unique things about this festival is how the word ‘international’ is truly accurate. The Global Voices stage of the festival is a chance to join in from anywhere in the world for an online series of panels, discussions and workshops from podcasters across the globe.

We believe that it is important to amplify what is happening in global podcasting. Not only is it a chance to learn from other professionals who might have different approaches, but it is a chance to hear stories from around the world. It opens up our own experience as listeners, and as podcasters we can find out different techniques, preferences for styles and ideas for creating our own unique shows.

We’re sharing some recommendations from our Global Voices speakers so that you can find out more about their work before you watch them at our Online Festival this year.

I LIKE NETWORKING

One show from our speakers that could be particularly useful before coming along to the International Women’s Podcast Festival is Isabel Sachs’ I LIKE NETWORKING. Isabel is an entrepreneur and public speaker with over eighteen years of experience in the creative industries, and her podcast is an extension of her networking program for women and non-binary people in that space. Speaking to experts from design, fashion, visual arts, and theatre, unpacking how they have designed their careers and sharing advice on how you can actually enjoy networking. If you want a podcast that will make you feel confident no matter what room you walk into, this one is a good choice. Isabel will be hosting the Sports Podcasting Panel on our Global Voices Stage. Listen to I LIKE NETWORKING here.

KABRAZEN

The KaBrazen podcast from the LAM Sisterhood is a children’s podcast that reimagines the stories of beautifully brazen women from Africa. We’ve written before about the value of creating podcasts in multiple languages, and this show creates every episode in both English and Kiswahili. In both versions, the host Auntie Shishi gives space for the listener to get involved, practising pronunciations of names and sing along. Whilst this is a podcast aimed at children, there is so much in this show for adult listeners – the music and sounds are wonderfully integrated, and whilst there is joy in the stories, they don’t shy away from some sad contexts at times. Two seasons are currently available of the show, which won the APVA Award for Best Children’s Podcast 2023. Aleya Kassam from The LAM Sisterhood is speaking on the Audio Drama and Storytelling Panel at this year’s Global Voices stage. Listen to KaBrazen here.

DOPE LABS

A podcast that received endorsements from notable figures including former First Lady Michelle Obama, Dope Labs was a Spotify Studios podcast created by MegaOhm Media. Its mission was to bring out the inner scientist in their listeners and being hosted by two best friends (and very dope scientists), Titi and Zakiya, there is a good balance of buddy-pod in there too. Dope Labs explored the idea of scientific principles in an engaging and relatable way (which is why we asked Zakiya to host an online workshop about turning boring facts into engaging podcasts!). The show covered a vast range of topics by using cultural touchstones as starting points, such as Mothers Day to look at maternal healthcare, or the Tinder Swindler as a starting point to explain cybersecurity. Sadly the podcast is no longer active, but the topics are still relevant and worth rediscovering. Listen to Dope Labs here.

CASEFILE PRESENTS TROUBLED WATERS

“I’m still worried about all the things in Australia that could kill you…” I like to think that this offhand comment from one of the contributors in this true crime podcast was put in because of the irony. It is true that many people from the UK looking in on Australia are concerned with the wildlife, but this show is focused on more malicious deaths. Troubled Waters is a new ten-part series from Casefile. The second podcast by Julia Robson, a Melbourne based Investigator, it explores the tragic and mysterious death of a young woman in 2011. Louisa Ioannidis was only 24 when her body was discovered in a local creek by passers-by (one of whom uttered the above passing comment). Her death was concluded to have ‘no suspicious circumstances’ but for Louisa’s family and friends, the circumstances surrounding how or why she came to be in the creek – in her dressing gown – have never been satisfactorily explained. Julia is speaking on the Investigative Podcasts Panel. Listen to Troubled Waters here.

BLOODLINES

Bloodlines is a joint production between BBC Asian Network, BBC Sounds and CBC, and that collaboration of resources, viewpoints and storylines may be part of what made this an multi-award winning investigative podcast. Another factor is no-doubt Poonam Taneja who is the host and reporter of Bloodlines. This podcast considers the aftermath of the war against the Islamic State, and asks – what became of the children of IS fighters? In particular, Poonam is tracking the story of two-year-old Salmaan, who disappeared in Syria in 2011. In London, his grandfather is still desperately searching for answers, and Poonam’s reporting takes her into dangerous territory to find out what happened to Salmaan and thousands of children like him. As an investigative journalist Poonam has reported from Syria, Afghanistan, Bosnia, India and many more countries and she is hosting our Investigative Podcasts Panel on the Global Voices stage. Listen to Bloodlines here.

SLAUGHTERHOUSE ROAD

For those wanting a little bit of light-hearted horror (especially at this time of the year) Slaughterhouse Road by Sydney-based writer and producer Jess Hamilton is my new go-to recommendation. Self-styled as “an australiana romantic horror musical podcast” we get perfect pacing between the dulcet narration from Jess and the comedic-noir of the songs. With lyrics such as “there’s nothing in the world like the sound of a cow’s last moo” (from a tune in the first episode that apparently evolved from a very funny jam with mates) the comedy is dark, and the romance is honey-sweet – a phrase that makes sense when you start listening! Jess is speaking on the Audio Drama and Storytelling Panel alongside Ella Watts and Aleya Kassam. Listen to Slaughterhouse Road here.

PLUS MANY MORE!

• One of the Content is Queen podcast picks of 2023, Black Earth Podcast sees environmental leader, Marion Atieno Osieyo, celebrating nature and black women leaders in the environmental movement. Marion is speaking on the Activism for Podcasters Panel alongside Youmna El Sayed and Attika Choudhary.
• Wheel It Up F1 features three friends Simone, Chanise and Anita who love F1 and each race week they bring listeners race reviews, F1 gossip, opinions, banter and a whole lot of laughs. Simone is talking on our Sports Podcasting Panel alongside Suzy Wrack, Viviane Favery Costa and Isabel Sachs.
• Mo! Sibyl is a Nigerian-born, US-educated, Korean-speaking, self-described “Struggling Intellectual”. The More Sibyl Podcast is about culture and culture nomads designed for Black listeners and Asian listeners – and those who love them.
• The MTB PASS GREGARIO podcast is an interview program all about mountain biking. It’s hosted by Viviane Favery, a two-time Brazilian champion mountain bike athlete, commentator for Red Bull TV and panellist on our Sports Podcasting panel.

This is still just a taste of the incredible audio that our speakers have created! You can listen to podcasts from all speakers from London event and Global Voices over on our Spotify playlist.

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We’re thrilled to share that this year our Global Voices online festival sessions will be free to access as part of the International Women’s Podcast Festival on 4th October. Head to festival.contentisqueen.org to see the stellar programme we’ve lined up for you or grab those tickets now.

Many people with their ear to the ground in the podcast industry will be familiar with Bea Duncan’s work. As an award winning creative, producer, and sound designer, she’s led production on some highly acclaimed and awarded shows, including Anthems for Broccoli Productions, Power Lines with The Kyiv Independent, and Who Robs A Banksy for Podimo UK. It’s this type of work that has made her a nominee for Producer of the Year at the Audio Production Awards in 2023, and has listed her as both a Radio Academy 30 under 30 and a PodPod ‘One To Watch’.

But Bea is also working within the audio industry on initiatives for inclusion that don’t come with awards, such as the Entry Level Audio Network (ELAN), which she co-founded to be a safe, supportive, network space for anyone who self-identifies as being entry level. “That’s a really important part of it,” she tells us. “You could be trying to break into the industry having just graduated or you could have worked in another industry for 20 years, or you’ve been in the industry for five years but still don’t feel like you’ve got that secure footing. If you feel like you need that support, then ELAN’s for you”.

Francesca Turauskis sat down with her to talk about the difficulties there are entering the audio industry, the importance of nurturing entry level producers, and how the power for change doesn’t only lie in the decisions made at company level.

FT: When did you know that you wanted to work in audio?

BD: I always knew that I would thrive in a creative job of some kind and I discovered podcasts when I was about sixteen. [It would have been] 2012 or 2013, and I remember sneaking off to the back of my school library with my iPod Classic, when I was supposed to be doing revision or something, listening to the latest episode of something that I would’ve downloaded manually on iTunes.

My first memories of podcasting were intimate moments alone with my headphones in, and I remember being very inspired by the range of what was possible with audio. I listened to Welcome to Night Vale a lot, a show called Philosophy Bites and there was a comedy chatty podcast called If I Were You, which was the first podcast from what eventually became Head Gum. Then, like a lot of people, a few years later it was Serial.

I found the possibilities of storytelling really fascinating. It felt like people were really innovating and it was a new artistic space for people to try new things, which was incredible. Also, the ability to create something very stimulating just with one sense, which still keeps you hanging as much as a television show or film.

I don’t think I realised that could be a job – I don’t know how possible it would’ve been at that point, it wouldn’t have been the same level of industry we have now. I went to university instead and did philosophy, but I joined my student radio station. I’m really grateful for those first few years of audio purely as a hobby because I could try so many different formats and start to understand what kind of audio storyteller I wanted to be.

FT: So when did you get your first job in audio and realise it could be a career?

BD: It was probably after a few years there that I was like, “oh wow, I actually could make a career out of this”. I was the deputy station manager of the [university] station and that was probably a full-time job – an unpaid one. I probably spent more time doing that than my actual degree.
When I left university, I did a lot of community radio, a lot of my own podcast projects. I did any course I could find, I was really trying very hard to get into the industry. My first actual, paid job was an independent radio station as a freelance assistant producer and I was doing a bunch of other random freelance shifts anywhere that I could get any sort of audio work.

Throughout that entire time I wanted to make the move into podcasting and my first podcasting job was as an AP [Assistant Producer] on a BBC Sounds podcast with – at that point, a brand new company – Broccoli Productions, which very quickly turned into a full-time job. That was the first time that I actually felt settled and secure in the audio industry. That was two and a half years after entering and I remember so vividly that feeling of relief of “I’m on the right track now”.

FT: You co-founded the Entry Level Audio Network (ELAN) around that time in 2019, which is about networking with your peers. What was it about your own experience that you decided ELAN was needed?

BD: It really came from a frustration about the experiences I’d had in my first few years and things that I’d seen with other people. There wasn’t a space to express those frustrations or to help someone else who might be in a similar position. Unpaid internships were rife, even the paid entry level jobs were not enough to live on – which is probably still the case now. The radio station that I worked at paid something wild like £50 a day to basically be a studio producer, so I had a heap of other jobs on the side. I even fed pigs at an urban farm!

To be frank, the work environment was not very good. I actually left the audio industry entirely for a few months between that job and joining Broccoli because I was burnt out and completely lacking in confidence – which is crazy and not normal after being in an industry for two years.

I can only look back now and realise what a bad environment that was for somebody who was just trying to get a foot in the door. I just wish that there had been somebody there to tell me “that rate is not normal, the treatment is not normal”.

At the time, I also felt quite out of place in spaces that were for audio professionals because I felt so low in confidence that I didn’t feel confident saying “I’m an audio producer”. I saw people getting their heads bitten off for asking really simple questions that I also wanted the answers to. So I decided to start ELAN and I wanted it to be a place where anything goes – ‘stupid questions’, asking advice about the industry, a place to connect and make friends as well, which is really lovely.

FT: How many people do you have in the group now?

BD: Many hundreds. I want to say 600? We’re on Facebook because Facebook was big in 2019, and there’s still people joining every day. I honestly did not think that it was going to get to the size that it is now. I truly thought there’d be ten people in a group meeting up for a drink every now and then, so clearly it was something that was very, very needed.

I run it with a wonderful producer, Tess Davidson, and we now also have a small team of entry level people. It’s actually really lovely because the people who joined when I first started the group are now my peers in the industry and I’ve seen them succeed. They’ve become the next generation of audio talent.

There’s still a huge amount to be done and we are still a tiny team of volunteers with absolutely no funding but we have grand plans that we’re trying to enact.

FT: That peer-to-peer support is obviously needed. How do you think companies can better support entry level audio professionals?

BD: To be honest, I really don’t see many audio companies who are genuinely serious about fostering junior talent. Our group is full to the brim with the most eager, hungry and talented creators that I’ve ever seen who just can’t find work. It’s heartbreaking because I feel like I’m letting them down even though I know I’m not. But I want to be able to give people jobs.

It’s such a tired phrase, but if companies wanted to, they would. And so if I was being facetious the number one thing that I would say for companies to better support entry level talent is: just want to. Just commit.

If I was going to be serious, it would be: jobs and pay. Actual entry level jobs where you don’t need experience and you should just be able to enjoy podcasting and be creative and have ideas. I think that would be really great. What I do see is a lot of poorly paid ‘entry level’ jobs that have the requirements of a producer level or seem to require degrees in audio production masters. I would love to see more people take a chance on entry-level freelancers too.

Obviously if companies were serious about improving accessibility, then we need jobs to be higher paid, they can’t be wages that were good enough five years ago. I would love to see companies seeking out fresh talent – whether that be making well-paid apprenticeships for a year, or putting on courses for people for free. The Entry Level Audio Network is just full of people who don’t even know where to go to apply for jobs, or they have applied for many, many jobs and they don’t feel like they can get a look in.

There are a couple of companies where I see good initiatives, but I just genuinely think it’s as simple as hiring actual entry level staff members and nurturing them. Those people will reward you as well. I’m somebody who was given an opportunity when I had never had a podcasting job before and then I was nurtured and I stayed at that company for a really long time.

FT: I agree with you, we do know what the answers are. So perhaps the more appropriate question is – what do you think is stopping companies from just doing it?

BD: You’ve written about it, it’s not just entry level, there are problems at every level of production right now with stagnant wages and with mistreatments. Budgets for shows are getting smaller, timelines are getting smaller. I think when every hour is money, companies just really want people who are going to take on a job for less money and deliver it in half the time. I think that’s all it is and I wish I could say something more than “stop doing that”.

FT: You’ve had a lot of recognition for the work that you’ve done. You’ve got 30 Under 30 from the Radio Academy, you’ve had award-winning shows and you mentioned Broccoli took a little bit of a punt on you and they nurtured you. What kind of things could companies be getting by nurturing this talent?

BD: I think dedication is one. If people feel nurtured by a company, they’re going to stay for a long time and everyone knows that it costs more to rehire somebody than it does to keep someone on. Not that I would usually think that way, but speaking the company’s language, that’s just a fact.

Those things that you mentioned, obviously I’m proud of those, but they’re not the markers of success for me. The work that got those achievements was what I’m proud of. That’s the stuff that the company would get: you’re going to get perspectives. If you help somebody and give them the opportunity to just try and fail – but they might try and succeed or they just keep getting better.

Yeah, you will also get acclaim and you can help young producers get a new producer award or whatever it might be. But the actual markers of success are in the work that gets made. We talk about diversifying the industry, and I think a lot of people think about that as lip service and “how does it look?” And it’s not about that. It’s about perspectives. We work in the business of storytelling and how are you supposed to get the thousands of millions of perspectives of human life from around the globe without having that many perspectives in an industry? If you are only able to get one particular perspective, it’s just going to make a very dull and boring industry.

FT: We’ve talked about what companies can do, but for individuals you’re running the Power of the Producer panel as part of the International Women’s Podcast Festival. What is it about that producer dynamic that is important to you?

BD: For a long time I’ve been thinking about the fact that as producers, the work we do, no matter what it is that we’re making, is always political. It’s not neutral. I think that people assume they have to be making current affairs programmes or documentaries or news content for it to be political, but that’s not the case. The places we choose to work or the topics that we cover or the guests that we book, the behaviour that we might witness at our workplaces that we don’t stand up against – all of that is important and feeds into the wider issues that we see in the industry.

I think about the Equality In Audio Pact, which was something that Broccoli Productions created as a kind-of ‘call to arms’ for the industry in 2020. There were a lot of large companies who it was interesting and important that we wanted them to sign. I saw a lot of people almost kind of going, “oh, well my company has signed this. That’s me done”. And they were still making the choice to appear on panels that weren’t representative, for example, or they were still making content that didn’t align with the values that I knew they had. That was interesting and I kind of felt we’ve all got a choice in this life.

At the same time, I’ve seen a lot of parts of our industry become very obsessed with commercial success and money. It’s just where we’re at at the moment with arts and with funding and all of the above. I don’t think it’s necessarily any one person’s fault, but I do think that I’ve had it where I’m having to make a programme in a specific amount of time because that’s what budgets will allow, and it means that it’s rushed and that the level of due diligence or care is not able to be given because it just physically can’t be.

It leads to contributors maybe feeling like they aren’t being valued in the process or a whole host of other things. So I am really interested to be having this discussion because I think it’s something that we maybe don’t talk about enough. It does feel sometimes, there’s that struggle of individualism versus the system. But I also think it’s about what we feel comfortable with on a day-to-day basis and we do have the ability to stand up for what’s right and we have the ability to say no to things, and we have the ability to make changes. Especially for producers who work pretty much alone or have a lot of autonomy in the work they do.

There’s a lot of different strands to the discussion, but that’s why it’s very important to me. I think it’s very important that we don’t just hold our hand up and go like, “well, the industry’s like this” because we’re taking the power away from ourselves when we have a lot of power to begin with.

FT: I feel like this is something that you’re going to go into in the panel, but do you have a top tip for making your contributors comfortable?

BD: The number one thing is just to be human. I think it’s always important to just remind yourself every single day that a contributor is doing you a favour by even speaking to you. They don’t have to make a podcast about something that’s happened to them, and it’s your duty to tell their story correctly, and that should be the number one thing that you’re thinking about.

Just always be asking them what they want. Do they want to be in a studio? Do they want to be at home because that makes them feel more comfortable? I’ve had it before where I’ve given somebody a recorder and just said, “I’m not even going to be there. You just say something into a microphone and then I will take that and turn that into a voiceover so that you don’t have to sit in a studio with a bunch of people you don’t know”. Never forget the contributor or the person giving you the story is the one in the driving seat. It’s not you, it’s never you. So you have to just make sure that they’re as comfortable as possible. It is never your content, ever.

I’d really recommend Jess Shane’s series, Shocking, Heartbreaking, Transformative for anyone who’s interested in examining their relationship to their work. That really put into practise a lot of the things that I’ve been thinking about over the years.

If you want to learn more about the power dynamics to consider when producing podcasts, Bea will be hosting the Power of the Producer Panel at this year’s International Women’s Podcast Festival on 4th October 2024. Tickets are on sale now.

Hiwote Getaneh is an audio producer whose curiosity about human-centered and emotion-driven storytelling has led her to work on some of the most critically recognised podcasts of recent years. As part of the team working on Where Should We Begin? and How’s Work? with Esther Perel, Hiwote is used to creating shows that rely on sharing parts of people that are often private.

Her passion for intimate storytelling is clear – In This is Dating, she even went as far as to put her own life in front on listeners for the sake of the story – but she says her skill for this can be traced back to her training in the field of public policy, where Hiwote worked for years as a Senior Research Analyst.

Francesca Turauskis hopped on a call with her to talk about transferring her skills in public policy to podcasts, podcasting cultures across international borders, and how to create a truly unique and intimate show…

Francesca: You have a background in public policy, how did you move into podcasting?

Hiwote: I was at Johns Hopkins studying public policy and health finance. Hopkins is really well known in the healthcare world, so I was like, “I’m so sure this is the path I’m going to go down.”

But I remember sitting in the classroom on my very first day in my master’s program, and I was like, “I’m in the wrong place, this is not where I’m supposed to be.” Over the two years of getting my masters, I was basically looking for creative outlets the entire time. When I graduated, the work I started doing was a policy analyst, and I realized “there’s no way this is gonna be the rest of my life”.

So I started interviewing people about how they created lives that they felt were fulfilling because my life did not feel fulfilling. That was actually my first foray into podcasting, because it was such a low barrier to entry in terms of just getting started to interview people.

Over the course of creating that podcast where I was interviewing people about how they created these incredible lives, I was like, “wait, I’m having a lot of fun creating this show”. That was the first indication that maybe this is the path I need to go down.

FT: It sounds like podcasting was the way you were trying to figure stuff out, but then the podcast became the thing that you figured out?

HG: That’s exactly right. Even now, I identify much more as a storyteller first and then podcasting grew on me. The medium of audio became something where I really appreciated the intimacy in a way that I couldn’t get on video, couldn’t get through writing. So I just kept going deeper and deeper on that front.

FT: Does your Public Policy background help you as a producer, is it something you’re still able to bring into your current role?

HG: When I worked in public policy, I was a policy analyst tech and what that technically means is: I was a statistical programmer. It’s the process of programming large data sets, and it means you have to learn how to break something really big into its smallest parts, or work backwards from where you want to get, to what you currently have. We would get [for example] mother’s birth data from all over a state and then try to link it with our sample sizes. That is actually intricately linked to what I do on a day-to-day basis because that’s what storytelling is, right?

You have this big picture idea, but really the things we connect to are these small moments, these emotions. They are the characters. Those are the building blocks to the stories and the pictures that we eventually end up having in our heads with someone when we’re listening to someone’s podcast. In that way [podcasting and policy analysis] feel really intricately linked.

In a much more explicit way, I’ve worked on a podcast with the Gates Foundation, which just happened to be what I did my research on during my master’s program. So there are some very direct, literal links, but to me, the more interesting part is that as a statistical programmer, I learned to think creatively. Even though I didn’t make that connection until way later, that same skill set is what I use as a storyteller.

FT: You were able to build your expertise and your connection to the Gates Foundation into producing a show – was a podcast something that you pitched to them or was that something that you were recommended because you had those expertise?

HG: At the time I was working for a company called Magnificent Noise, it was a production house, and they had been talking to the Gates Foundation about making a podcast with them. I just happened to be the easiest producer to pick because I had that background, so I didn’t really have to pitch myself. It just felt really evident that the show [Make Me Care About] would be a natural fit for me.

FT: So, just lean into things that you’re good at and lean into that knowledge?

HG: Yeah. I spent a lot of time being like, “am I glad I took out American student loans to get a master’s..?” It’s hard to look back and think about whether, actually, could you do what you’re doing now without the background that you have? You will never know that answer, right? But I think about it a lot because my career is entirely different than what I ever imagined it to be. I’m a child of immigrants, I thought I was going to go to med school. That didn’t happen, which is why I went into public policy, because I was like, “this is a serious job, I will be a serious person”.

Now I tell stories for my living and my family still wonders what I do!

FT: You mentioned being a child of immigrants, and you’ve lived in ‘several corners of the world’, as you’ve described it. Do you have much of a view on how podcasting in the UK or the US differs to other countries?

HG: I know the US market really well, but I don’t know a ton about podcasting in the UK to be honest with you because I’m based in Lisbon – I want to be upfront about that. What I have noticed is American culture, the same way it’s exported in music, and then sports and arts, is so widely exported to the rest of the world. I notice that lots of folks think the American shows that are the most famous shows we see on Apple Podcasts – the shows that are constantly charting – are the standard. But I’ve just found so many cool shows based in different parts of the world that I’m like “the Americans don’t know about this!”.

I wish we had the collective power to share what is being created in different corners of the world. I know there are a bunch of very cool shows that have come out of the UK, but when I went to Nairobi I met podcast producers and podcast houses there that were really interesting. They had shows that had concepts and a basis that I never really thought about. So my big noticing is that we Americans do a really good job of marketing and I almost wish we could take that skill set and share it with the rest of the world, instead of just the product [the podcasts] that we end up sharing.

FT: A show you worked on, This Is Dating, was one of those international successes and for good reason as it was quite unique. What was the process of developing that show?

HG: Well, it was [Executive Producer] Jesse Baker who was really the mastermind behind it. A similar show that the same producers made is called, Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel and in terms of concept, they share a DNA. We had this idea that with online dating, you’re super superficial and it’s incredibly emotionally draining because you feel like a commodity and you’re kind of commodifying the people that you’re swiping on. The concept behind this show was “how do we go to the total opposite end and center connection first?”.

What was super interesting and super hard was – people really wanted to be vulnerable and share their stories and actually experience this kind of scary experience, but also they were terrified that the world would know who they were. So for the first season, I basically found people through my network and a big part of the promise [to contributors] from our end was, “It’s not about you meeting the love of your life… but we have a great dating coach and can provide some questions and the right structures for this hour you are together. You’re going to have fun and then you can decide whether you’re going to keep dating them or not. Only if you feel like this is going to be fun and beneficial for you should you do this.”.

The actual dates were created in that way that slowed the whole [dating] process down and so the process for us as producers also required that we slowed down and thought a lot about ‘if we’re creating a place of intimacy between these two strangers, how do we create intimacy between us and our listeners that allows them to come on the journey with us?’

The date’s are anywhere from an hour to two hours long, but you end up hearing maybe 15 minutes of that date. That was the hardest part about developing the show – finding the people was super easy and fun, convincing them was a thing we did very carefully because we didn’t want to push anybody into doing it. But actually shaping the story, we had to spend a lot of time thinking about what our audience cares about and how we insert ourselves as guides, or ‘dating fairy godmothers’ so that it wasn’t about us.

But also, we have to insert some parts of ourselves, especially me because I was the only producer that was dating. How much of my story I would share versus not was a big thing that we talked about a lot.

FT: Do you think that you’ve got the right balance?

HG: I always feel like I never quite get that balance right. [But we’ll talk about it more in our panel!]

FT: Lastly, you run an Emerging Voice Accelerator programme about helping people to create shows that are unique to them. Would you have a number one tip for developing an idea that is unique to you?

HG: The biggest thing that’s been sitting with me is this idea of creative resilience. I think that most of us don’t create shows that are unique to us, because we have an idea in our heads of what we want to make, but our skill level is not there yet.

My learning is that the only way to fill that gap is to develop creative resilience. [What I mean by this is] continue to stay with it until you actually find your voice, continue to pivot and experiment with your ideas until your ideas feel truly unique to you.

My learning is actually nine times out of ten, whatever you create is not going to be that unique to you. It’s not going to be that good yet. Even when professionals are doing it, it’s not always going to be good at first. The difference between what pros do and what I used to do as an amateur is that pros just keep going and they keep iterating and they do it with other people’s input. They keep sharing it. Maybe you don’t share it with the public, but we would have table reads where we would hear rough drafts of something we’re thinking about. We would get feedback on it and we’d go back and scrap it and start over and whatever.

When I think of creative resilience I think we need emotional regulation first and foremost because what happens for most of us is we start something, we feel the pain of it not being that good and then we either distract ourselves, give it up or just rush and publish the thing so that it’s out of our purview. We need to actually learn how to sit with uncomfortable emotions and then continue working towards the vision that we have.

The second thing is not creating in a silo. Make sure that when you are creating something you have trusted partners, friends, listeners, whatever stage you’re in. When I first started, it was a family member who would listen to the first 15 minutes of an episode. Eventually as I grew my Instagram, it became audience members who I would tap and say like, “can I give you just the preview of this thing?”. I think creating in a community is one of the most powerful tools.

The third piece of advice, and that I would give myself this advice five, seven, eight years ago, is continuous learning or failing forwards. It’s embracing this stuff, getting very comfortable with not being where you want to be and saying, “okay, I’m just going to try and fix this one thing on the next episode”. Once you fix that one thing, your level up is so big and you feel so good about that.

If you want to learn more about creating unique and intimate podcasts, Hiwote will be hosting the Structure of Intimacy Panel at this year’s International Women’s Podcast Festival on 4th October 2024. Tickets are on sale now.