AudioBook Club: Queenie- A Quiet Implosion with Shvorne Marks (Episode)

Feb 21st

For our second episode of AudioBook Club, we meet up to discuss the Queenie by Candice Carty-Williams.

Warning: There are spoilers in this episode

Queenie is the story of the delightfully tragic Queenie Jenkins, one of the twenty-first century’s great fictional creations. Queenie is a rollercoaster of emotions. It’s LOL-funny, dramatic and tender.

We’re joined by 12 Audiobookworms this week who listened to the drama and couldn’t wait to share their thoughts on Queenie with you. The episode features a Q&A and a special appearance from the narrator.

Warning: There are spoilers in this episode if you’d like to jump ahead to the Q&A with Shvorne Marks at 45:15.

Full transcript available below:

Hey, Amber here, producer of AudioBook Club and resident audio bookworm. I’m just here to let you know that this episode contains references to strong language, mature themes and sensitive topics that some listeners may find triggering. If you find yourself in need of help, we provide some support groups you can reach out to in the show notes.

Welcome to AudioBook Club. I’m your host Imriel Morgan. The founder of Content is Queen. AudioBook Club is a monthly event and podcast where we celebrate and discuss black, Asian, queer, and female narratives and literature. Every month we meet with other audiobookworms to discuss an audiobook recommended by you.

But and it’s a big one. You can still attend the live event, even if you’ve read and not listen to the book. We’ll share our live discussion in every episode, followed by an interview and Q and a with a featured guest. If we’re lucky, we’ll have the author by expect to hear from voice activists, directors, editors, and book critics, to join us for our next live event and taping on Sunday, the 28th of February at 4:00 PM UK time where we’ll be getting stuck into erotic stories for Punjabi widows by Balli Kaur Jaswal.

Just well you can register to attend The link is also in the show notes. If you can’t make it, feel free to send your thoughts and even your questions to us on WhatsApp on plus four, four double seven one five four zero double eight, three one that’s plus four double seven one five Oh zero double eight, three one also available in the show notes.

Oh, and apologies in advance, but you’ll have to expect some spoilers. So if you haven’t listened, but you plan to, you might want to skip to the halfway mark for the Q&A.

This week we’re discussing Queenie by candies Kati Williams, narrated by Chavonne marks. Queenie is the story of the delightfully tragic Queenie Jenkins. One of the great fictional creations of the 21st century Queenie is a rollercoaster of emotions. It’s laugh out loud, funny, dramatic, and tender. We meet Queenie as her life begins to spiral out of control.

Her Jamaican, British family. Don’t quite get her. Her boyfriend has left her in limbo and her job often leaves her feeling deflated and frustrated. We’ve followed as Queenie desperately tries to navigate her way through changing friendships, rising racial tensions and countless toxic relationships.

Here’s what’s coming up. Our thoughts on the men, at least Guy was what he says on the 10. He was horrendous. He was horrible. And he was so flagrantly vile as a human that you could accept it, but it was the other man that were more acceptable Ted’s looks. The part was actually horrendous that I found way more sinister, how we relate to, to Queenie related to what she was saying.

Cause some situations, but then learn in other situations. And I think that’s what I really liked about Queenie. And you just got so much from it. No matter what your background was, you could just almost relate or learn or just get something from it. It was just really refreshing Chavon, mud spills, the beans.

And I cried in the toilet because I found it so tough. I was just so overwhelmed with it all because to sit in a box for three days and read a book is a challenge for sure, all this and so much more. So let’s get into it. First up, let’s meet this week’s AudioBookworms

I’m Sophie and I work in alumni at Greenwich Uni. I’m Amber and I work alongside Imriel at Content is Queen I’m Ellie and I work in radio. So I make a mixture of documentaries and podcasts. Hello, I’m Viv. I’m a DJ singer-songwriter and a scriptwriter. I am not late. I, um, a Natalie I run events. Hey, I’m Eunice. And I work in international development. I work in the youth offending team, my name’s Anita Powell, and I actually do community work.

Lovely. Thanks everyone for being here. Let’s kick the discussion of showy because there is a lot. Uh, lots to talk about with Queenie, I think,

Can I just start off with what are first impressions of the book were? And that seems like the easiest place to start. I’ll be honest. I was first introduced to Queenie. I had the BBC sounds podcast. I saw something posted on Instagram probably by candies herself, and then I clicked on it and then discovered this podcast.

And I ended up listening to that, to the whole thing in one setting, because it was just something I haven’t heard before, you know, just black, British women, typical lifestyle, just kind of trying to navigate being in a relationship and find her feet in her career and stuff. And it was just a very normal story.

It wasn’t this massively dramatize thing and all this crazy stuff’s happening. It was all very relatable. And I just hadn’t heard anything like it produced by a black, British female. I’m sure there’s stuff out there, but I just hadn’t heard it. So my first impression was, wow, this is cool. I completely agree.

That’s how I felt when I first heard it. I was like, wait, I am Jamaican. And then as she was going through all of this. Mental health trauma, and all of these really crazy relationships, ho phase and all of this stuff going on. And I was like triggered and seen

I will not be revealing all of my sins on this podcast, but I was just like, I feel very seen by this book. And so I completely understand what you mean when you say it was just, it was refreshing to hear that perspective. The thing is, so this claim, I did read this book over a year ago, so I mean, a lot of what I have is this kind of like watch remains.

Like, what I remember is sort of making me feel like the faster I get to my mind was frustration. How some kinds of clients to might slap this down. I just remember feeling frustrated, but then I went out listening to live, speak. So there’s two things I think that I can relate to clean in some ways, but there’s many ways I don’t relate to her.

And I think that it’s slightly different for me being African and having been born and raised there. I left Uganda for the first time when I was 26. And then I went through a transition where you kind of discover your black and then what all that means. And so for me, it was kind of reading what that would have been like having that construct of I’m black and race, being an issue for your child, who then growing up, which is something I didn’t really have an insight into for me.

I was sitting on learning or sort of taking notes because I now have a mixed race, little boy. And I’ve always had this anxiety around, like, I don’t know how to raise your black in this context. Like I know back home where it’s not really a thing. I feel like there’s so many codes and things that to navigate that I don’t really have the tools to help him with.

So I think for me, it was kind of sitting back and almost learning in a way people imagine that if you’re black and female and within that, you automatically relate. But for me, it’s an educational thing. Really. I think that’s really interesting. And it was quite nice to have heard how you responded to it and then unit how you responded to it.

And then I think I’m somewhere in the middle because I’m of Nigerian heritage, but I was born in East London and I’ve grown up in East London. So I haven’t had the exact same experiences as Queenie, but I related to a lot of it. Wasn’t so removed from me. I remember those microaggressions in those spaces, but Oh, okay.

That’s slightly different to how I grew up, but Oh, that’s interesting to learn, but Oh yeah. A hundred percent. I’ve been in that position. And I think that’s what I really liked about Queenie Anna. You just got so much from it. No matter what your background was, you could just almost relate or learn or just get something from it.

It was just really refreshing. I definitely a hundred percent agree with the relate-ability of it. The micro deductions. Again, I felt, I felt understood. They didn’t want to take part in it, but the paper we’re doing a whole, we are diverse initiative and asked if I would be on the supporting images as I am one of four diverse members of staff who don’t work in the service divisions.

When, in my induction, the Spanish HR assistant quite literally said to me, you were very lucky to be working here. There were others like you, except not the same color. You know, there are darker ones, but they’re in it. I open my mouth to respond. They still have no idea what I was going to say. The bedside Asian of black women that come through as a theme, the Angra about gentrification for your queen is eyes.

It was so released, but it wasn’t more higher than it needed to be. We’re fortunate as issues on your freight. It was really relatable. I loved it. Awesome. I was just going to add that. The one thing that I could certainly relate to with my African upbringing was the religion being the solution to everything, you know, that the prayer body I definitely, for those really great points of view.

I am curious to hear how everyone else is feeling. Amber, Ellie, Sophie, please do jump in with your first impressions. I feel like Eunice’s point was really interesting about feeling frustration, because I felt like I really loved Queenie as a character, which then meant when things started going wrong for her.

Like you were really rooting for her the whole way through. And when she made choices that maybe weren’t the right ones, I felt a bit like it was like, you know, you get a real insight. I think it’s a credit to the writing about feeling like you’re hearing your meat dish on what’s going on in her life.

Feeling sometimes helpless that, you know, maybe things aren’t going right for her. I think that frustration is a really key part of the book. As you listen along both like what queen might be doing, but equally like how people are treating her. And it’s really unnecessary. So you can relate to queen is a character, but with her friendship group, as well, most people have a friendship group like that.

Everyone felt like a group chat where you can talk to your friends about your problems. And I feel like you can relate to her friends because most people in their life will have a Queenie who has been through terrible relationships. And you want to give this advice and like Taylor, but I can also see in Queenie’s eyes that it’s hard to take the advice that you get.

So it’s easy to give it, but it’s hard to receive it, pick it up. I agree with if that it was quite normal, If that makes sense. I think her surroundings and stuff was certain that it wasn’t like a book when London’s this, you know, sex and the city kinds of Bridget Jones. Everyone’s got the money. It’s whatever.

Yeah. Like London’s this gorgeous little utopia that everyone lives in. So I quite like that. And also because it’s places that are familiar, I live in Lou Sherman. These are places that I know I get the one, three, six. Um, I, I just found like it was quite normal. Yeah. It was like reading. You may S story and your mates problems.

Cause it was stuff that happens all the time to everyone. And I agreed with you in a sec sometimes that they just want to shake her. But then I more felt just exhausted at the crap she was grabbing fruit. Like as soon as Tom was introduced as like cook, cook, cook, he is at all. So he is problematic AAF. I hate his head on every man.

I just, I just was through it. And I was like, man, Hi, you just need to get rid of these white losers. I hate that they all have read this. Um, it’s the same conversation that you have with mates that you’re just like, you need to do some soul searching and just not accept this crap, but I’ll probably ever run it.

Pop that layer. The devil’s advocate is that a devil’s advocate is honestly just an excuse for being an asshole and saying horrendous things that you do come to believe. And I hate, uh, hate him. All of the men are hot, garbage. I do quite like the granddad though. Love the ground. Does grandad, can we put something on the tele that isn’t news I asked, he finally looked away from the television and stared at me for a million years as you are.

No, I do not like anything that is fictitious. He announced turning the news up and facing the screen again. The only thing we should be watching is what’s happening in new world, around us is a horrible state of affairs. And you young as you are to stop being so ignorant will Fred don’t start now even barista on Jesus’s birthday.

Hadn’t many remote does advocate for going to therapy. Say all man and trash pick was all right. Just don’t keep the water running. Yeah. I did want to touch on the mental health actually, because that was such the mental health aspect of Queenie does. We’re talking about because we could easily latch onto the sex and the men and the relationships, and even the friendships, which I think is also a really big theme, but the mental health aspect, like we definitely get a sense that Queenie is troubled from the very start.

And I think that came through with her nightmares, but I’m curious what everyone else took away from her mental health issues. I think one thing that I think the book did really well was tell this story that if someone’s going through something it’s not necessarily a massive explosion, it can be a very quiet implosion that can actually take place over a number of months.

And I think one of the best ways is when you see her at work, if you actually just pick up all of the work parts, yeah. She talks about her work ethic is going downhill, but it’s not in a way that makes you think it’s going to erupt in the way that it does it over the course of the book. You see things getting slowly worse and worse.

I think it really. Sums up the fact that it doesn’t have to be this massive Raul and everything goes wrong all at once. Actually you can see that over a long period of time, this can happen to somebody, particularly when you’re introduced to her as being someone who clearly has fun with her friends and stuff at the start, and then seeing how she changes.

I think it really shows how over time it can really affect people. He also showed how it can affect people and also how it can affect everyone. Like for me, it made me reflect because like I said, the situation was so quote unquote normal in that a lot of us have experienced working in certain environments.

And you know, she’s really passionate about certain stories. She wants to tell when she’s not allowed to write about them because they’re not palatable. And that in itself, it seems like a small thing to be told. No, don’t write about that, but actually there’s so much going on there. It’s like, don’t tell your story.

No one wants to hear your story, which is actually your pain and your reality as she’s being told. You don’t matter, essentially like people don’t care. And so she has to carry on as normal and keep producing great work, knowing that is the perception. People don’t care about your story. And the patient wants to, to grab some food has now changed because they couldn’t afford the rent.

And it’s like, again, who you are, where you grew up, your home has just been changed like that. And nobody cares. Can’t afford the rent. Okay. Off you go. And it’s all these different ways of being shut down and oppressed, and there’s nothing you can do about it. And then she probably thought she’d found some hope in Tom.

And he mentioned her having walls up, but there’s all this stuff that she can’t talk about because it’s not. Palatable or prior to now where people are speaking a lot more freely at the time when Queenie came out and even before then you had to walk in a certain way to, just to just get through the day, like, as a black person or a person of color, or even sometimes just being women.

Like you have to overlook so many things just to get through the day and she’s been doing that and it’s just constantly knocking her down, knocking her down so you can completely understand why she ends up where she ends up. And it’s just this sort of amalgamation of all these things. And you look at it, it’s like, wow, I carry a lot of stuff.

You carry a lot of this stuff. This isn’t a situation that’s. So far removed from any of us. And actually if we don’t pay attention to what people are going through and have a bit more empathy and just kind of look at the world through other people’s perspectives, we can expect to see this a lot more.

And we shouldn’t be surprised when people do implode. Like what did you think?

Yeah. I think building on that as well, the expectation of being strong as a black woman, that was another addition on top of

and the generational kind of stigma against mental health and fair pay and anything like that was something else that I did say on one side, she’s not saying you don’t matter the places that you care about it up, but on the other side, it’s like, well, you’ve got to get on with it. You’ve got to be strong.

You’re a black woman. That’s what we do. And I think that had a huge part in pushing it down for so long. And like you say, then imploding. Yeah. I actually want to touch on that because like you said earlier, that gradual decline and that then juxtaposed with her having to be strong and put on a brave face.

I lied to her friends about these very, very questionable interactions she’s having with men also speaks to the weird dynamic that she’s got with Sylvie, her mum, which is so subtle for out the book, like it’s there, this lingering, weak timid woman who’s been taken advantage of. And I kind of see. Queenie resisting being anything like her mother and her mother was weak and taken advantage of men.

And she has to be strong because she is not going to be her mother. So I don’t know if anyone else will that parallel, but I thought it was this strange mirroring and almost resistance to how she’d been bought up and almost rejecting the abandonment before it’s even happened. And then that also then relates to the fact that she just could not let go of Tom who was trash, but she just never let go of again, another thing I could relate to really was like that stigma around mental health, particularly like in Uganda, I recently had a conversation with a family member who should have some mental issues.

She’s had a nervous breakdown and she was saying, it’s like, she was so ashamed of it. This book, I think really tried for me, explained a little bit how deeply rooted some of these issues are like her grandmother loved her to death, but was like the person sending away or getting the help she needed. But also on the other hand, how grandparents were like, some people are like totally obsessed with medicine and they had the pill for everything.

And we just have this block, like if you’re sick physically, then run to a doctor, get all the help you can get. But if it’s something mental, then there’s like just a block. And I think this book really tried to go down into the psyche of what happens. And another thing, another way you said Natalie was like the generation of thing and how old is untreated problems?

That in many ways, particularly in Africa, we like to explain things with religion or cost and, you know, you have the single black families class, but when you. Really step to look into some of these things. It’s all this untreated trauma just being passed down and passed out. Reading Queenie actually was when I had this conversation with this family member, I felt like I was so much better equipped to talk about these things and kind of sense, an illness.

You just need to get the help that you need and is subsidized to be ashamed of because sometimes they think you’ve grown up around these things and you’ve never really gone deeper to unravel them and why. And even for me, obviously, I’m sure I’ve absorbed a bit of that from my upbringing on the mental health points.

And also on the subtlety that the book was written. I found so interesting in that it wasn’t parodied how your life fulfilled. Like it’s fallen apart a little bit. It was like quite a slow ban of hair. Starting to have things slept. When I read a book, I get so invested in it that I feel like I’m the main character, like main character energy, you know?

And you relate something so much. You’re so engrossed that you feel like you’re then as I was reading it, I was just constantly exhausted by the crap she was going through. And I was just like, this isn’t necessarily something I’ve experienced apart from the religious aspect and the way her family approach, mental health and stuff.

But I just thought it was quite true to help many people and many young people even now experienced their mental health. So when she just wasn’t really addressing it and addressing the stuff from your past, I just thought, wow, that’s like, I’m from a working class Catholic background that it’s kind of like having mental health problems, the rich people problem.

It’s like not poor people problem. You just get on with it. You don’t really address mental health in the same way, because you’ve got to work. You’ve got to get off. You just got to keep moving because you don’t have those same opportunities. It’s a luxury to take time for yourself. Yeah. But you didn’t have the same opportunities.

So the people, so I think for Queenie. Yeah. Yeah. She didn’t have the same opportunities to the people. So you just have to get on with it. Like you’ve just got to work twice as hard for half as much. And I just thought, yeah, that is so true. And it was so exhausting to read in her perspective. It’s just one thing after another and you’re always so close to something imploding, but she’s just trying to keep it together.

Even though she’s got Gina who doesn’t want to know, and she’s got friends like Cassandra, who’s just infuriating, but everyone’s always got a toxic meat and you’re always apologizing for them. And I just felt like in every aspect, there was someone taking a little piece of art and she was just trying to get on with it the whole time.

And that’s what I really liked about queen is that even though at the end, she did end up addressing those things. I like that it wasn’t parodies. It was just so. Normally, I do wonder though, if she didn’t end up being suspended from work, whether she would still be stuck in the cycle of not addressing anything, still seeing men that aren’t good for her and just stuck in a cycle.

I think that moment of being suspended and having nothing was when she’s like, right. Let’s get this sorted. Yeah. As if like, would that have been her rock bottom? Yeah. I think you just carry on don’t you when you’re swimming and you’re just sort of treading water. You just keep doing that until you hit rock bottom or something forces you out of that state.

You want to touch on the friendships because that was such a big part of this book, the corgis Darcy, Cassandra, and Chesca have all individually surpass themselves when it comes to support recently, mainly just by allowing me to text and text and text though, I was beginning to worry that it was all a bit of a Queenie show at the moment.

I don’t want my friends to think they exist purely to listen to me. Talk about how much of a joke my life is. The corgis Chesca. Is it going to be cold Cassandra while it’s November? So probably Darcy is going to be four degrees. So we should all wrap up. I’ve got a spare pair of gloves if you need them.

Chesca. And the fact that they were so wildly different as a group and forced together. And I really love that. She said, you know, she’s forced these people into a WhatsApp group, but none of them kind of consented to being in, which is just so true of every WhatsApp group I’ve ever been in and created.

But I really, really felt like of all of the bad things happening in Queenie’s life. That support structure. Like, I don’t know if she would have survived without the support of those friends. What were your thoughts? Well, I mean, we’ve forgotten the friendship and this is my interpretation. So people might disagree with me and by the, um, I’m slightly old one just on why I thought what it was also, was it evidence that she also code switched a lot within her life because our frames were so diverse.

I, to presume you said they were kind of forced together in the WhatsApp group. So therefore I kind of fell out in different parts of her life. She makes friends with totally different people and she’s bought them together. So I presume she code switch and has different types of relations, different types of people.

And potentially that could be quite tiring. I find if you, as I said, it could be my interpretation and it could be that people disagree. I actually think I disagree. I agree because the fact that in the WhatsApp group and that became the dominant form of communication with the friends. And I mean, Darcy probably started outside of that because of the workplace.

I actually felt. That she was quite honest, open and direct and used pretty much a consistent voice in that group. So all I take away from her, in those groups where she was so selfish, she had no time for any of her friends. I found that quite passing that was when I found her the most frustrating was with her friends, that she just did not seem to care about anyone or any other thing.

But when she was expressing herself while she was keeping D definitely had a mask up and on and not being entirely truthful with them, I definitely felt like her voice was consistent. But again, did anyone else have a different thought? Well, I definitely thought the corgis was her sort of outlet to vent about whatever she wanted, but I did like how her friends didn’t give her what she wanted.

She didn’t get praise from them all the time. They actually gave her the facts and the realization that actually what you’re doing, isn’t the greatest. And you should. Take a step back and have a neck. I think the only thing that comes to mind when I think about friendship was that the relationship with one of her friends, I’m looking at lending her money and basically, yeah, it was like this weird dynamic where it was like, it felt a bit unhealthy to me.

So I just remember kind of thinking how much or everything else like that. So my kindness also feeds into. Or friendships and kind of who we surround ourselves with. Yeah. Kapha, Cassandra, I’m glad she was reasonably minor. I also think it comes down to how Shavon voiced her because she was just so posh.

There is something quite off-putting about that tone of voice. And we definitely need to ask about the voices and how they were selected when we get to the Q and a, but there was something uniquely unlikeable about Cassandra and that’s definitely how she was written, but also how she sounded. And yeah.

Like you said, you going to start really odd dynamic of lending, Queenie money to kind of get through the day, which was nice. But then it became like co-dependent I don’t know. It was yeah. Cause like a power play. Yeah. Yeah. I got that. I didn’t care for Cassandra at all, but I felt like we need to relationships with Darcy and Chesca they were like genuine friendships.

I felt like they genuinely cared for her. Whereas Cassandra, she used Queenie almost, even when they first met, she was like, we have to stick together and it’s like, okay, great. And then she would lend Queenie money, but then remind her that she’d lent her money. And it just very much came across. Like you’re beneath me almost like we’re friends, but I’m the more powerful friend or you need me or I’m here to help you.

And you just don’t remind people that you help them. If you help them, you help them. But you never. Bring it up because then it’s like, well, did you help them? Or is it some sort of leverage that you’re trying to have over them? You’re damaged goods. I words hit me like Anthony Joshua punch me in the chest.

I sat on the edge of the bed. You’re damaged goods. So you self-destruct Cassandra repeated calmly a good thing. She repeated it too, because I couldn’t believe what I’d had the first time. No wonder Thomas gait, when he did, he was too good for you. As her was continued to strike me, I could feel my heart fragment a little bit more.

You’re so closed off that actual love is out of your reach. So you settle for sex with anyone who fuck you. Your self esteem is a joke. She plays the edge of the tape on the cardboard and extended it, sealing the box. So take care. You can let yourself out. I stood up. What was the point in trying to change your mind?

Good luck with everything greeny. Cassandra said, as I walked out of the room. Oh, and you have my bank account details. I’ll send you your tab. I mean, like, even when some of her parting words to Queenie about sending her the tab, basically for the money that she’d lent, we can get into the guy’s stuff in a minute.

Cause that’s a whole other kettle of fish. But I did feel like the way that it was brought around where at the end, the people who were there to support her were still Darcy. And Chesca really just shows that there were the two like ride or die. Whereas knowing everything that like, she won’t know the full extent of guy, but even what she knew surely that’s enough for you to be like, this guy is really dodgy.

What am I doing? Because he was awful. Let let’s go into shower you because there was so just so many men that was so trash, just so many, but guy was uniquely and distinctly the worst. Um, I think it’s too early for that sort of present guy. I removed my hand from his boxes. I’ll come on. You said it yourself.

It’s Christmas time. How about a quick hand job? He bagged you took so long in the shower last night that I fell asleep before I could give you a festive fuck. A hand job is the least you can do guy. I think we should. I said in a very small voice, maybe wrap things up, hah, God cut me off. Come on. There’s nothing to wrap up.

This is never going to be more than sex. You know that you’re a good girl, but I’m busy. I don’t have time for dating and all that guy, you know, I’m a person, don’t you. I started with thoughts and feelings and, and a big gob, but most of all, a big ass, he was awful. But also, I mean, Ted was Ted was, he was really bad.

I can’t decide who was like, I really struggle. I was like guy because of the violence. Definitely took that up a notch. I will admit in my first listening of Queenie, I definitely got the sense that her and Ted’s. Relationship was more mutual than I thought it was. And then listening the second time, I was like, no, actually this is harassment.

This is plain as day harassment in the workplace. Guy’s an interesting one because he awful, he was so dehumanizing. Oh, you put your camera on for guy

you can just stop me. But yeah, die for me. It said a lot about the state of mind as to allow in that kind of treatment to happen to us. And I’m all for sexual freedom and yes, they’ll do your thing. However, Wayne, which was treated when she was alone with him was atrocious. It was disgusting. And then the way in which she tried the next day to the court is try to almost justify it and make it sound a lot less violent than what it was.

You could see that she in itself was like, Oh, it’s almost did I deserve, but that was month to be treated that way. I was like, no, no one does ask for treat that way. He’s trash. And start looking for trashed ice. What you’ve heard about, about the last trash? I just stuck away. Yeah. It really broke my heart.

They, when they did the date and it was horrendous, but then she wants to cuddle up to his back and get some sort of comfort and then he just pushes her away again. And it’s just my heart. Yeah. It was really heartbreaking. So guy trash, trash, human, horrible. If he says mail, send him to jail, hate him.

However, that least guy was what he says on the tent. You know what I mean? He was horrendous. He was horrible. And he was so flagrantly vial as a human that you could accept it, but it was the other man that were more acceptable. Tom, who she idolized Ted sweet guy looks. The part was actually horrendous that I found way more sinister because after her first time having sex with Gaia, I was like, okay, she’s going to take him to court.

He’s going down for rape. He’s horrible. But she kept going back to him because of her own things. But I think guy was just the big red flag, but I think he made links that, or the people in her life that were getting away with mass art that were smaller, like pink flags, almost red flag, but they were just more, uh, below the radar, which I was, it was a lot more mental, like actual manipulation, which can go with your heart and you don’t realize.

And then also what guidance, when that head go into the sexual health clinical effort, then that bans so racist. Oh, are you being sex trafficked just as she jumped up to leave a male nurse came through the doors and as expected screamed my name through the waiting room coming, coming. I got up in the nurse, smiled at me and walked through the double doors to the assessment rooms.

I followed him in my legs beginning to feel wobbly. When I was taken into a room a little too similar to Lewisham hospital scanning room, I sat in a squeaky plastic chair next to an old Brown desk. The nurse tapped some things in day’s computer. Okay. So I have a few questions. He said it shouldn’t take too long.

I wanted to turn and run back out into the waiting room. It was like this. I realized that I was desperately lacking some sort of maternal figure yeah. In my life. So Queenie your last sexual partner. When was that? Um, two days ago. And was it a casual partner or a long-term partner? Casual. I said I crossed and uncross my legs.

And this partner, where were they from? Were they from Africa? The nurse asked, were they from Africa, higher risk of HIV? The nurse told me, maybe you should explain that. But no, he was Welsh when I heard that, that was the most accurate part of the book. I was like, do they ask you these questions? Yes, they do.

Have you had sex with someone from Africa? I remember being at uni, like, um, I mean he is African, but I think he is born here. So does that count? Like you have to do the mental gymnastics to be like, what are you asking me? But I did appreciate as much as I felt the microaggressions were quite visceral in the sexual health clinic.

I did appreciate that they still were looking out for her safety and health. I think that was a one saving grace is like, these marks are consistent with very violent abuse. Are you sure you’re okay. And there must have been some sort of dissociation on Queenie’s part to just be like, no, no, I’m going to defend this decision.

I, I was okay with this. I can send it to this. And it’s like, did you though love, did you, or are you now consenting to it after the fact, because of all of the shame and the guilt and the fear that you must be feeling now after it’s happened, but yes, let’s go to Ted. Oh, just awful. Total manipulation. Ted placed his hands on my waist and pulled me up and into the left cameras.

I reminded him. What if someone is watching, he stood directly behind me and kiss my neck at them. See, he whispered into my ear, fuck it. I paired melting into him. We got up to Ted’s floor. And as soon as we stepped through the lift doors, he took a sharp right and open the door to the disabled toilets.

After year, he said my heart beginning to beat faster. If I didn’t want this, why was I letting it happen? Surely I wanted this. I just got worse and worse and worse. Every time he came back to Ted somehow got even worse. It really did, as we heard the email exchanges and just how relentless he was and how persistent he was and how much she actually, even though she was going through the mental turmoil of, well, I think this guy’s quite good looking and maybe I would, but that’s all happening mentally.

And I disconnect those two things in my original listening, but then actually now I’m hearing her internal monologue and then you’re hearing her actual interactions with Ted and she never gave any indication that she wanted any part of that man. All of her words and her actions were turning away. Very blatant.

I’m not interested. I can’t do this right now. I’m trying to get back with my boyfriend. And he wasn’t having any of it. And I’m actually quite glad that she kind of got vindicated in the end. So cause at one point she does slightly turn and she’s like, Oh maybe. And then she starts feeling guilty because she feels like she’s cheating on Tom’s that she’s feeling awful about it for that allowing herself to believe there might be something in it.

And then it just gets doubled down by him, big total trash. And then I think, I know we’re about to talk about voices in a minute, but I just think the way that he was voiced on my second listen, I was like, it’s the perfect voice for how much of a slimy snake he is basically. And I really let me, my skin crawl, listening to him talk.

That was really good too. I really love that. He’s just such a, like everyone has met that character in your life. It’s so relatable. If it’s not a blatant note, then men still go for you and still want yeah. Like, it’s just really frustrating to hear that it’s just, even though there’s hints and like, we shouldn’t eat, but yeah.

Sorry. I hate it. I’m getting, I’m getting red in the face. I think he just had the bowls of someone with privilege and that’s what pissed me off. You just did stuff with no form of consequences, getting married when he didn’t want to get married, her brass and Queenie, then putting in a sexual harassment claim against Queenie with no fault of consequence.

Like people just believed in because of who he was. What is that about? Where’s the investigation that’s like where people looking out for Queenie, like what the hell to have the balls to write a letter and think queen is not going to say. And because I am in charge here, I was you little bastard, like wanting forgiveness.

I actually just turning it around with yeah. Udacity is the one word. Describe him that way. You’ve got that audacity, but you need to put it back like a horrible, I need to breathe. We didn’t even touch on Tom and Tom’s family. So Tom is so small. He’s so big in that his presence is felt throughout the whole book, obviously, because she’s pining after him as her ex love.

But I know that we’ve all said that Tom’s highly problematic. I thought the most problematic thing Tom did, which I kind of understood in some ways was just not backup Queenie in front of his family queen Queenie. I paid into the darkness, Tom, this is where you are. It smells awful in here. He said before taking a deep breath.

Sorry. I got angry before. I kept my mouth shut, but you can’t keep doing this Queenie. His tone was disappointed. I know that in your family, everyone is loud and you solve problems by shouting about them. But my family is different. This keeps happening and I don’t know what to do. I can’t protect you when it’s my family.

You think you need protect him from Tom, ran his hands through his hair dramatically. And I rolled my eyes. You know what? My uncles like is from a generation where they said the N word quite a lot. I looked at him and blinked slowly by now. He knew that this man, if you think I’ll agree with you, you’re wrong.

Not that I’m excusing it. He said quickly, but come on, you can’t ruin my mom’s birthday because of it. As someone in an interracial relationship, I actually put that down to the fact that he just did not know how he, this was his first. Not that it’s an excuse. It was just his first. Non white partner, I guess, is how it’s portrayed.

And so him not even having the language or the understanding to stand up to them, probably played a part in that. But I’m curious to know what everyone else thought about. Tom’s dynamic within his family and what could he have done differently? And would you have done it differently if you were in his position?

Keep saying that although people have been doing this work for a long time, there’s been a very clear shift since the Jewish Floyd incident of people speaking, being much more vocal, and that spoke a lot more people, being more vocal about microaggressions and even most recently with, you know, what’s going on with you one day and how she had to deal with someone refusing to pronounce her name properly and thinking that giving her a nickname is acceptable.

And actually there’s so many layers to that. It was a very accurate depiction of what happens when you’re with someone who you care for. So it could be your partner, or we could be like, I’ve been with friends in the workplace before, and someone has made a comment pertaining to race about being black.

And you don’t want to say anything cause it isn’t. I know Queenie’s case was different, but it’s not racist as in, I hate black people, but it’s, there’s something very wrong with what you just said. And we know it because if you were in a different environment, you wouldn’t have said it and your friend wants to stick up for you and you know, their why or whatever, but they don’t want to make it.

Awkward. It was this huge elephant in the room that no one wants to address. And so people don’t address it and afterwards they might comfort you. But what happens is when you don’t address it, the person is still hurt. They don’t get to not address it. They have to deal with that hurt. So Tom didn’t know what to say, cause he’s never had to say anything.

And it’s this thing that we don’t talk about, even when it’s really, really blatant, like whatever his uncle said, but it’s either your discomfort or her severe pain. And in all of these interactions more often than not people choose your severe pain over their discomfort. And that’s what we saw that it doesn’t mean he’s racist or w what the hell is this guy doing?

It’s just, he’s never had to, he’s not had to make those decisions clearly. And I think, yeah, that was my take. Is that what made him increasingly problematic as we had these interactions progress, as she starts to recount these memories with his family, Is that he starts putting the blame on her for bringing it up.

And that’s where I started to take an issue with it because it’s one thing that you feel uncomfortable calling out your family, cause it’s your family and that’s awkward for anyone, but don’t blame Queenie for now defending herself for something that she literally cannot change and you are with her.

So that’s what really got him really got on my nerves about Tom, is that you can’t be getting angry with her for basically being called the N word at a Christmas dinner, or, you know, she’s got too much black on her when it was whites versus dark shirts or something in a game. And she was like, I’m wearing a white dress.

And the uncle’s like, no love you. There’s too much black on you. And I was disgusted. I’m glad she stormed out. And I’m glad that Kate dropped on the floor. Thanks. Yeah. Yeah. I’m happy about it. I was the queen. I, she didn’t, I start to think that Tom was in the changes, farmers perceptions in the slightest, but she just wanted Tom to be there and say something, be there for her without a supervisor that made him, you know, but yeah, it was just.

The shame. Cause you could just see him just reaching out to him across the rib night. Come on, please say something, anything, just say NFN. Mm mm. But then because there was no backup from him, she was then internally making excuses for the racist action that was going on. And was that he did that because I was just a Jake because she didn’t want to express her opinion further.

You did hear that second guessing going on of like, am I overreacting? And I think as black women in the room, I think that’s definitely, probably occurred more than once is like, am I being too much about this? Is this a big deal? Should it be a big deal? And I think that does happen. I think he just made her out to be an angry black woman.

It was just like you cheat, man. What is everyone? Because her reaction wasn’t no reaction. It was a reaction to something that was completely justified and she wouldn’t have reacted like that if he hadn’t of acted like that. So stop him acting like that. And she won’t react. I just thought it was so victim blaming the whole.

Oh, well, Queenie kicks off for every end. And I just thought, well, yeah, cause you did an effort in wrong, so I’ve got you expected today. Do you know what I mean? And it was just stuff, making it look like this Andree black, lazy. Every time she sticks up for herself, because if you’re not going to do it, who else is going to debit?

She needed to take up space. And every time she did, he was like, go back in your box. But every time I was definitely trying to pull her out, like, I want you to talk to me on what used to talk to me. And then every time she did try to say something or express it, it wasn’t the way he wanted it to be expressed.

And so he was just like, no, no, no, you’re doing too much. You’re going too far. I think that’s exactly it. What you just said is often her not expressing herself the way someone else wants her to express herself. And I think that’s so relatable for a lot of us in so many different situations is people say, you know, let us know if you need help or if you’re upset or let us know, let us know.

But then it has to be on. Their terms, otherwise it’s not received. And I think that was an example, obviously she exploded, but she had every right to, yeah. Yeah. Going back on the issue with creamy, starting to question itself, but that’s what racism does. It’s very insidious. And it also makes you second guess yourself.

And I just want to put it out there that as black people or black women, we must remember that we are not the problem. And that’s one thing that we need to. Keep at the forefront. We are not the problem. We’re just having to try to navigate in a world that is just anti-black. Hey, how are you finding audio book clubs so far?

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Now it’s time to introduce someone that can probably answer some of our lingering questions. We have the narrator and actor behind Queenie Chavon. Mark’s here. Welcome to audio book club Shavon. Hi, you have no idea how excited we are to have you here. Could you start off by introducing yourself to us? I am Chabot marks.

I’m an actor, a voiceover artist. A mum. Yeah. So that’s me welcome. Did you tell us how Queenie came to your desk? How did you come across the story? I signed to a new voiceover agent, so I think I’d only been with them maybe half a year or something. And then they sent me Queenie and said candy. Schedulers is like Pedro voice and really wants you to narrate her new book.

And I’d never done an audio book before. Wow. So I was a bit like, okay, I’ll have a read. I look forward to reading it. And then I read the book and I was just like, Oh, my God. It’s brilliant. I, yeah, it would just be the biggest pleasure to read this. Absolutely. Tell her yes, not a problem, but then also this feels like a lot of work, a whole book, not the best reader either.

So how is this going to go down? So, yeah, it was great. She heard my voice rail and just wanting me to do it. So I feel lucky. Yeah. How did it go down? Because there are a lot of characters in this book. How did it go? Um, well, I spoke to candidates a lot beforehand. We sort of made sure we were on the same, the same page with the characters.

And then from there I did a load of prep, read the book quite a few times, sort of approached it. Like I would approach a play because it was my first book I’d ever done. I was just like, Oh gosh. Yeah. How is it going to go down? And then on my first day, like literally within the first couple of, no, it must’ve been like the first hour I was reading it and I went to the loo and I.

Cried in the toilet because I found it so tough. I was like, Oh my God, I can’t do this. This is so hard. I can’t do it. I can’t do it. I kinda cried a little bit, not too much because I knew I then had to go back and use my voice. And I didn’t want to sound like I’d been crying, but I was just so overwhelmed with it all because to sit in a box for three days and read a book is a challenge for sure.

But that’s what makes it so great seeing people’s reaction to it. And I’ve had so much love from people listening to it that I guess I should have had more faith in myself. Yes, you should. You absolutely killed it. Like, I don’t think you understand. I don’t have another voice in my head for cleaning other than your voice.

So yeah. Oh, if they decided to remake it or do a film, I would struggle. Oh, wow. No, you’re very welcome. So I’d love to know Shavon as a hobby project, I’ve been making some audiobooks myself yeah. For children. So for my nieces and nephews, and what I find difficult is remembering which voice I’ve used for which character.

And so the park keeper will reappear in the second chapter. And I think, Oh, blimey, was he a northerner? Was he Scottish? What was he? And I obviously I’m making notes and I’m just having fun with it. But did you have to have really detailed descriptions of the kind of voices you gave people that you could then refer to?

Yeah, that was part of the whole sort of overwhelm was it’s like, you’ve got all these voices what’s going to come out. Then they reappear, who were they? What were my choices? So for me, I annotate and I color code everyone. Everyone has their own color and I will choose a specific color for that character and to how it makes me.

Feel. So for example, Paul Darcy was like a soft pink, and then I would just look at that and it would instantly make me feel really dicey. And it would just instantly take me there. Granddad was like this light Brown and it would just make me feel slow and yeah. Have a different weight to my voice. So I would do that and I wouldn’t be able to do it without my little color coding.

And Chesca was like a bright red because she just gave me that sort of call edgy loud. Yeah. And that’s how I would sort of work. That’s so fascinating is that main people you’d see music in condoms. Do you see music and kindness? Do you have synesthesia that amazing gift of seeing? No, I’ve just done it for this, for my book.

So I always do it when, yeah. If I do an audio book now or you just always have just colors for how it makes you, I was just curious. Cause I love the way you link the colors with the way you imagined the character. So I was just curious what color. What kind of guy was, I think guy was actually just a blue it’s because he comes in quite late, but you start to run out of colors.

Also guy was written. I think he was, well, that is correct. We were told he was Welsh, but I don’t believe he actually had a Welsh accident. See, I wasn’t going to do that. Uh, so I was like, yes. So can’t do that. Can’t do that one. We’ll try to do this. So yeah, guy, well, she wasn’t actually well in the audio, but Tom spoiler sticks with me more out of the boys.

Cause I just remember it being quite whiny. That is so accurate. So you’re so annoying. Be quiet. It sounded like he was moaning. Yeah, Tom did have a very distinctive voice and it was a wine is definitely the best description for that. I think Candy’s when we were talking about it, she was like, think Simon from the in-between us, Natalie, please do ask your question.

Go ahead. I wanted to know what your process was. I’d be through. When you read the book first, you have that perception of the character in your head. Is it hard to not go into it? Start in the audio book with that preconception in your head. So like you say, you’re, Tom was already Waianae, but the characters such as tad, for example, he didn’t seem that offensive in the buddy name, but then he progressed into an harassing horrible, not very nice man, but his boys didn’t come across like that.

You did a brilliant job at not giving those preconceptions, but is it difficult to do that? I don’t think so. In the sense of, you know, I was reading like 400 page book and the only way for me to get through. It was like, literally just to take every page as it came. So I wasn’t really thinking about the end result of those characters.

I was just trying to stay present with it. And I had the first read, which I got to enjoy. And then I went back, go through, make notes, like highlight certain things that you don’t find out till later, but you might have to bring in earlier on, I just approach it like a script. I just wanted to ask him, I think it was, Revlamid a comment earlier that at some point reading a book, she was exhausted.

And I was just wondering for you, as you are going through this, did sort of the material and handling some of the challenges that Katie was going through. How was that for you? Like going on that emotional journey with her, was that really difficult or exhausting for you? Yeah, I think that was tough because I love queen and I think she’s beautifully flawed and was going through.

So much. And also, I mean, just doing a book is exhausting anyway, so that comes with it. But yeah, I think her whole journey and the decisions, her choices, it is exhausting, but in a great way, because I felt like I knew her. I felt like she was around a character. So. She was great to read. Viv. Do you wanna ask your question?

So this is more of a voiceover technical question. Like I mentioned at the start that I’m working on an audio fiction podcast and we’ve just wrapped up the pilot. And initially I voiced all the characters and so I voiced the different guys and the girls and everything, and then I got money to voice it with the house, do say it to voice it using actors.

But one of the things my character does is she breaks the fourth wall quite a lot. So I talk to the listeners and then I go back into the story and I was just after any kind of tips, because you’ll hear what my character is thinking, but then she maybe describes what she can see in front of you. So she’s talking to you now.

So I kind of have to switch between who I’m talking to. And I just wondered if you had any tips for that. It might be easier for you to explain queening a rating and then going into dialogue. Like how did you find that switch? Well, I still highlight. All of Queenie’s speaking lines is different to her just being alone and talking to us, the reader that is, we need voice when she’s talking to someone is slightly different.

How I do that? Is another story. Um, but I definitely, it feels when she’s alone, there’s more honesty. And I guess it’s just more internal. It’s more just to herself. And there may be even just technically on the market goes and little bit quieter. Yeah. Or maybe she speaks a little bit faster because she’s just mumbling to herself.

She doesn’t have to articulate every word. I definitely think you need to make a differentiation between the two. Well, from your response, even though you, I can see like, Hmm, what did I do there? And that does give me some comfort, but because that’s how I felt. And at times I would maybe. Try and look slightly left to give the sound of her voice, like a different sort of texture and also make it a little bit quieter in some places.

But I didn’t know if there was maybe a trick to switching between the two, because there is a subtle change. Like there is a difference between describing the character stores that internal monologue, but obviously you want your listener to hear it and then talking to your listener. So I guess maybe I’m on the right track, but I’m sure you are.

And I think actually I’m thinking about like candies with our writing. I think she made that really easy for me, but Queenie’s internal to audience, voice. I think it was actually quite different to how she spoke to everyone else. We got to know a lot more of Queenie. I think then the people around us sort of knew.

Yeah, I definitely felt like the distinction listening as the third party audience member, I felt the difference was in the speed and the volume, I guess, would be the easiest way to describe it. The cadence and the pacing was just ever so slightly different, which meant that we could differentiate between.

Queenie talking to us and Queenie talking to the corgis and Queenie, generally narrating Brixton, for example, you definitely did it that way. Whether you were consciously thinking about it. Yeah. It’s very comfortable. It will go to Sophie then Elliot, then Shaza aye. I wanted to ask, so obviously you’ve record set over three days and that must have been seven tenths.

Cause you were really in the thick of it. After I finished reading something or whatever, I feel like I have a bit of like a book hanging over. When you’re trying to piece out, what’s real, what’s not from your own life because you’re so engrossed in what you’re doing. So did you find anything that really stuck with you that you were like, I just can’t stop thinking about this part from that three days of if Devon the book, was there any that just stuck in you and it changed your perception or something that you just couldn’t detangle from?

Well, I mean, personally on one note is Queenie with her therapy and going to therapy. I think that stuck with me. I took some quotes from that by me, actually sort of going internal and thinking about. My own mental health and how I felt. And from then I actually went and saw a therapist for myself. But I think as a character, because it was quite intense, I did try and shake a lot of it off because she goes on such a journey, such a roller coaster, but also at the end then as well, it’s not that things are solved or anything, but the ending feels like there’s a lot of hope for queen in the future for our next journey, I guess.

Good followup question to that was how were you taking care of yourself during the more intense readings of the book? Because there is quite graphic descriptions of sexual assault and microaggressions and racism in your black women as well. You know, how were you looking after yourself and making sure that you weren’t internalizing some of the harm that Queenie was experiencing as a character in all honesty?

I don’t know if I was. Fair enough. Yeah. I don’t know if I was even, you know what I said with the tears that could have been a multitude of things and not just me doing this and feeling overwhelmed, but yeah, I sort of as well, I spent so much time prepping to do this book. Like I said, I read it so many times I’ve gone through it so much.

Like, because I knew it was going to be great. I was like, I cannot mess this up. So I really put in the hours and I think it was just all a release as well. Thank you for your honesty on that, because sometimes that’s just the truth. We don’t, we don’t do what we need to do. It sounds like really intense three days because of what you doing in that time, Scott, and because of the story, but there’s also lots of moments of joy in that book, I think.

And I wondered what parts you either had a lot of fun doing the voices for, or if there was a character where you really enjoyed doing the voice. So it kind of lifted you through some of the heavier stuff. I would say Cheska I loved reading her. I went through my script, my annotated script, and I came across her, I think is when we first meet her.

When she’s telling Queenie about her day, when she’s met this guy and she goes on the date and he takes you to that Thai restaurant and she’s in a nice dress in crystal palace. She wants to be in the West end and she’s got on Ella Bhutanese and that, and I was just reading it and I then started to read it out loud.

And then I started to reading it. I remember having so much fun with that. She was just jokes all the time. So yeah. I loved reading for her. I loved reading, uh, bits of ideas. Oh yeah. Cause he’s just ridiculous. Yeah, exactly. It was just so ridiculous, but I enjoyed that. So yeah, I definitely had a lot of fun as well with some of these characters and also being her being a grandma was.

Really fun and reminded me of my grant. Both of my grants sort of merged together. Actually, there was a lot of joy for sure. It was far from doom and gloom. Wonderful. Charlotte, let’s go to your question just based on the conversations, heart inevitable. It’s inevitable that Queenie went through a hell of a large, met a lot of poor decisions in that.

So does she have a happy ending? I would say there’s light at the end of the tunnel that she’s about to go through another tunnel is how I sort of feel it. It’s not all joyous, but it feels like there’s contentment and she sort of more in tune with who she is. She’s learnt a lot about us when the book ends and where it ends and how it does, you know, as you closed that chapter and you finished voicing it, where did you yourself think Queenie would go?

Where do you see Queenie now after this is all finished? Cause I know you said that there would be a light before another tunnel. What do you see her next year being?

Oh, gosh. I mean, I don’t know if I don’t know. And also can I just point out, I read this over two years ago. It was a lot, I think it’s speaking to candies and her being, I think she, yeah, sorry. I don’t want to say too much.

Okay. Scoop that we’re not quite going to get!

I just wanted to know who your favorite character wants to voice and if it was Queenie, was there another one that was your favourite? Actually, I was going to say Chesca because as I said before, I did really enjoy voicing her, but I also really enjoyed her art.

Maggie. Maggie was funny. I really loved her. I sort of based her on Kim from EastEnders. Yes. I see that. So, you know, just for that instant, like intubate character, I would think of her. Yeah. She just gave me jokes. Really? Thanks,

Camilla go for it. I just wanted to say a huge, thank you for sharing all these thoughts about how you approach the project and listening to you talking and all of you describing the book and the characters.

I’m not really excited and I’m going to listen to it rather than read it because now that I’ve met, you should have one. I feel like I’ve been given a sort of backstage pass. It’s just a real privilege to be able to hear about the story from someone who’s clearly absorbed it and you know, the story so well.

So I’m going to feel like you’re reading it to me. So that’s you place? I thank you so much for sharing. Definitely. Listen, thank you all so much for coming along. This has been a phenomenal discussion. There is still just so much. We didn’t even get to even begin to unpack with Queenie and that’s just the way of any book I imagined.

But this one in particular, I think, was very relatable in so many different ways and it was just a phenomenal read.

We’ve come to the end of the show. What new thing have you taken away from Queenie? It’s an incredible story, right? Are you ready to have a go and become an audio bookworm? You know, that you can, and that does include if you’ve read and not listened to the book. Our next event is on Sunday, the 28th, February at 4:00 PM, where we’ll be discussing the erotics.

Stories pull Punjabi widows by Bali core, just well narrated by merit sigh out suggested by this week’s AudioBookworm Eunice you can register, or find everything you need in the show notes. Our events also always happen on the last Sunday of every month. If you can’t make this one, you can probably make the next one.

If you’ve can’t bear to wait a month for your next audiobook, fix, check out. You heard it here first, a recommendation show that helps you find a new audiobook. Podcasts or drama to listen to on audible, you can subscribe and listen to it on your favourite podcast player today.

Thank you to all of our excellent audiobookworms and our special guest shovel marks. This was a Content is Queen production posted by Imriel Morgan produced by Amber Miller and Imriel Morgan. The featured guest was Shvorne Marks. The clips used are from Queenie by Candice Carty-Williams, courtesy of Orion publishing the music and sound effects are sourced from epidemic sound until next time.

See you soon.